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Border Force Cutters.

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Repulse
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Repulse » 31 May 2016, 14:49

Engaging Strategy wrote:Better to leave them in the current navigation and command training role with flag flying and drumming up recruits through the URNUs as useful add-ons.


I was thinking more along the lines of inshore / harbour / mariner patrolling, though agree that a whole new class of midshore Patrol craft are required, something in the order of 25-30m with a small calibre gun capable of 40+kts.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Engaging Strategy » 31 May 2016, 14:57

Repulse wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of inshore / harbour / mariner patrolling, though agree that a whole new class of midshore Patrol craft are required, something in the order of 25-30m with a small calibre gun capable of 40+kts.


Much better and cheaper options are available for that sort of thing. For inshore/harbor/marina patrol you want something smaller and more maneuverable than a P2000. The 15m patrol boats currently used by the MoD Police seem about right for that sort of work.
police boat.jpg
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 31 May 2016, 15:02

would say most constabularies with a coastline should now look at a maritime unit or extending the scope of the BGA or Coastguard

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Repulse » 31 May 2016, 15:04

marktigger wrote:something like the STAN 4207 would be a good option


I was thinking about something like this: https://cmn-group.com/products-and-serv ... tor-hsi32/

Or

https://cmn-group.com/products-and-serv ... ante-fs46/
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 31 May 2016, 15:05

Repulse wrote:something in the order of 25-30m with a small calibre gun capable of 40+kts.


Like this?



or the Greeks are using these to rescue migrants;

Image

^ Damen Stan Patrol 5509, pretty much the new version of our cutters.

marktigger wrote:would say most constabularies with a coastline should now look at a maritime unit or extending the scope of the BGA or Coastguard


I don't think they have the resources to patrol our vast coast line.

The border force does need expanding, perhaps with the options above, it shouldn't be the responsibility of the military. Smuggling and fishing is a local civilian responsibility.

The border force should also look at including some fixed wing light aircraft, perhaps the Britten-Norman Defender used by the police, which is already used for maritime surveillance.

Unfortunately our moat is no longer enough to keep us secure, we are going to have to stump up some more cash for the border force to keep the moat safe.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Engaging Strategy » 31 May 2016, 15:20

This article: http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/bus ... ey-4924370 seems to indicate that those 15m police boats are just a hair under £1.2mn each and HMG bought the Damen 42m Customs cutters for around £5mn apiece (in 2016 money). So, for the price of the 3 new Batch II River class OPVs we could have bought a mixed fleet of 23 additional 42m cutters and 278 15m police patrol boats. Reckon that'd be enough to protect the UK's EEZ and inshore waters? :lol:
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Repulse » 31 May 2016, 17:50

Engaging Strategy wrote:Reckon that'd be enough to protect the UK's EEZ and inshore waters?


The Rivers are over priced due to government poor planning, but to compare them to Cutters are comparing apples and pears.

The time when an unarmed police boat was all you needed to keep the moat safe is long gone. Terrorists are armed like small armies and to not be ready to deploy lethal force at a moment's notice is very foolhardy.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Graham Swain » 31 May 2016, 18:30

Why are the BF not armed? Why should they have to rely on the RN/ NCA to provide armed assistance when required. Surely it would be better to bring them up to Police AFO standard. Boarding any vessel has its issues but if the crew of the vessel do happen to be armed then at least the BF will have something to bite back with. Just a thought

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 31 May 2016, 20:21

i'm sure the RN/RM could provide some fleet protection group assets

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 31 May 2016, 20:27

how do the rivers compare price wise with the LE Sammuel Beckett class

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Caribbean » 01 Jun 2016, 01:01

I think that depends on how you price the Rivers - wiki gives the price of the Becketts as 71m euros, so approx 54m GBP. The Rivers were 348m GBP for 3, but if you strip out the TOBA payment of approx 230m GBP, they come in at 39.3m GBP each. Of course, some of the cost of the build might have been covered by the TOBA payment, so who knows really?
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 01 Jun 2016, 07:08

The whole class was for sale (for a price tag that prompted speculation about them ending up in some impoverished Baltic state) and we bought one (1!):

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home ... -coastline

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Repulse » 01 Jun 2016, 14:30

Graham Swain wrote:Why are the BF not armed? Why should they have to rely on the RN/ NCA to provide armed assistance when required. Surely it would be better to bring them up to Police AFO standard.


Why duplicate the Royal Navy? The cheapest solution in my view would be to buy more ships and sailors and stop trying to duplicate what we have (but not enough of).

According to the daily mail, in 2018 the Boarder Agency will get a new fleet of 20m semi rigid Boats. That is too late, and a MOD UOR should be issued for the fast interceptors I mentioned above. Also whilst I accept they are not perfect the P2000s should start patrolling now. Some people may say it's an over reaction, but given the recent terrorist incidents it's not a time for compliancy.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 06 Jun 2016, 18:45

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... l-security

Patrol vessels will also be introduced, helping to intercept attempts to smuggle dangerous weapons, drugs and migrants into the country.

The first batch will be in place in the coming months, with all of the vessels operational by the end of next year. The vessels will add to the protection already offered by the Border Force cutters and Royal Navy vessels which patrol the UK coastline.


This is something I have been trying to piece together for a while now, apparently the border force are getting additional patrol boats, but there is very little info information on them.

Apparently they will take the form of six 20 meter patrol boats, but the info is sketchy.

Does anyone know anything clearer ?
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Caribbean » 07 Jun 2016, 01:16

But they are also getting £31m (and 150 people) extra to counter tobacco smuggling.

I wonder what their priorities are?
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 07 Jun 2016, 13:13

well a 20M boat is about same size as a p2000
and 150 people tasked to look at tabacco smuggling can also look at other smuggled items like people, drugs, guns etc

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Galloglass » 07 Jun 2016, 13:52

Hi Mark,
How about a swap? Two Peacocks for 3 Rivers?
Smiley

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 07 Jun 2016, 14:07

just a shame we sold the last 3 to the philipines would have made great NIPS vessels

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 10 Jun 2016, 22:42

Might be of interest;

In 2014/15 the cutter fleet's annual running costs were approximately £12.3 million.


£2.5 million per cutter per annum

Source; http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/Border ... story.html
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Engaging Strategy » 10 Jun 2016, 23:06

Would be very interesting to see how much it costs to run a UKBF cutter annually "all in" including crew along with the other running costs. I think the major problem with putting the RN in the lead of UK EEZ patrol is that RN personnel are much more expensive to train and use in that role compared with their civilian counterparts.

I think there's definitely a role for patrol ships in the mould of the River class, able to operate in poor weather and high sea states, but operated by either the Border force or a "proper" coast guard. Maybe just have a handful of RN people aboard to maintain and operate the 30mm cannon.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 11 Jun 2016, 11:48

i wonder how many of the UKBF crews are Ex RN and the costs of their training has been picked up by the MoD already

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 11 Jun 2016, 15:29

UKBF member do not need to deploy to the Gulf for 9 months. Good for one who wanna see his/her family every week.
Navy personnel do deploy for 9 months. I understand they see their family at the middle or only after they come back to Britain. Must be payed more, trained more (un danger place).

I do NOT agree the vessels on border defense must be heavily armed. No. It is a matter of intelligence gathering to identify if your "enemy" is equipped with no arms, only a pistol, a rifle, or RPGs, or even MANPADS. There is no justification arming all of your cutters with 3in gun. Better increase the number of cutters with that money.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 11 Jun 2016, 18:40

donald_of_tokyo wrote:UKBF member do not need to deploy to the Gulf for 9 months. Good for one who wanna see his/her family every week.
Navy personnel do deploy for 9 months. I understand they see their family at the middle or only after they come back to Britain. Must be payed more, trained more (un danger place).

I do NOT agree the vessels on border defense must be heavily armed. No. It is a matter of intelligence gathering to identify if your "enemy" is equipped with no arms, only a pistol, a rifle, or RPGs, or even MANPADS. There is no justification arming all of your cutters with 3in gun. Better increase the number of cutters with that money.



no but they are doing allot of overtime protecting EU southern borders in the mediterranean

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 11 Jun 2016, 20:06

marktigger wrote:no but they are doing allot of overtime protecting EU southern borders in the mediterranean


They are certainly going above what is expected of the UK border force, it seems like excellent work.

Linking back to our earlier discussion Mark, this is the kind of role where endurance of a river class type is required. The cutters should be focusing on UK waters, allowing the rivers to contribute to maritime security beyond the channel in situations just like this.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 11 Jun 2016, 20:09

A border force cutter cost's £2.5 million to operate per year, and each year the Marine Management Organisation pay's the MOD £8million for their fisheries protection duties.

Perhaps the MMO should go it alone with some 42m fisheries protection cutter's.

That would allow the Navy to focus on providing maritime security instead of checking fish.
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