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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 15:07
by donald_of_tokyo
River Batch 1s are simple vessel. Without CMS and any heavy weapons, it is easy to maintain, and cheap to operate. It weighs 1700t FL, designed to patrol around UK waters. If the theater of border force is to be enlarged out to hundreds of km from the coast, River B.1 will fit right.

Selling something and buying another always has some "loss", or overheads to the industries (promotion, support, sell/buy operations). River B.1s will be sold quite cheap. The new user will only pay for the "overheads", and there will be no income to HMG/MOD/RN, I'm afraid.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 15:25
by marktigger
donald this is the issue EEZ protection is split between a variety of agencies with different focuses of roles. Personally I think this is wasteful and a single provider is the way ahead. whether that is the Royal Navy or the Border service. This patchwork has evolved over hundreds of years with the navy having been involved for most of that time.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 15:37
by donald_of_tokyo
Forming a "coast guard" is quite reasonable I think, since I am in a country having one of the largest coast guard in the world.

Please note that our coast guards is a "sea police" rather than a "4th military service". Lean manned, but have many civilian-standard vessels (built in many small ship-builders), which is cheap to buy and operate (but may not have proper damage control).

- 13,422 personel, 1.5 B$/yr
- 454 vessels/boats, 74 aircrafts, ~130 "coast-guard stations" (many are very small ones).

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 16:12
by marktigger
thats what the UK needs to consolidate things and to be honest to make it much more efficient and value for money.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 17:36
by shark bait
It sure does need to consolidate it's resources, in the hands of a civilian organisation they could be spread further.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 21:19
by marktigger
shark bait wrote:It sure does need to consolidate it's resources, in the hands of a civilian organisation they could be spread further.



so the navy wouldn't need OPV's and the resources could be invested in a decent light frigate

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 22:10
by shark bait
I would still advocate forward deployed OPV's, much like the French.

Beyond that yes, focus on reinforcing the royal navy's core capabilities. Pounds spent on more patrol boats are pounds that can't be sent on core assets.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 15 Apr 2016, 23:37
by Caribbean
shark bait wrote:I would still advocate forward deployed OPV's, much like the French.

If our OPVs were like the Floreals, I would be quite happy to use them as guardships and in the anti-piracy/drug-running role (though I wouldn't insist on the two Exocet launchers, much as it would be highly entertaining to use one to stop a go-fast :)

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 16 Apr 2016, 00:30
by marktigger
the rivers are fairly close to the size of the floreals which the french classify as a light frigate built to commercial standards to the SOLAS regulations.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 16 Apr 2016, 00:52
by Caribbean
marktigger wrote:the rivers are fairly close to the size of the floreals which the french classify as a light frigate built to commercial standards to the SOLAS regulations.

But with a helicopter, boats, Exocet, 100mm gun and 10,000nm range - not really that similar

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 16 Apr 2016, 06:45
by marktigger
yes and we accept the rivers as a great step forward for the fleet! that can be used in a very similar way to the Floreals deployed internationally on a variety of operations.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 16 Apr 2016, 18:16
by Caribbean
Shall we take the River stuff over to the River thread :D

On Border Force cutters - they do seem like a very good design for the vast majority of the Border force stuff and would make a good standard for a "UKCG" cutter (it will be very interesting to see what is reported back from the various operations in the Med), but I do feel that they should be complemented by some larger vessels for Offshore work as well as a number of smaller fast boats for "rapid response" work

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 17 Apr 2016, 09:15
by marktigger
the rivers should be going to the Border force not the navy. As there should be 1 force to police the UK EEZ and enforce the variety of legislation as it applies.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 21 Apr 2016, 09:42
by marktigger

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 21 Apr 2016, 10:18
by shark bait
Agreed we do, especially if we are using some to contribute to frontex.

Also does any one know what this is? Is a boat from the Plymouth herald article that I don't recognise Image

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 21 Apr 2016, 10:37
by GibMariner
That looks like the former HMC Sentinel, decommissioned a couple of years ago.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 21 Apr 2016, 10:38
by marktigger
one of the former customs cutters senteniel

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 May 2016, 12:10
by marktigger
looks like border force needs cutters closer to home with more RN OPV's

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36407685

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 May 2016, 12:36
by Repulse
marktigger wrote:looks like border force needs cutters closer to home with more RN OPV's

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36407685


Agreed, it's just the start. With an increase in illegal migration, terrorism and Russian sub incursions it's time the UK got serious about its EEZ. It will also need to contend with friction over fisheries when we vote to leave.

I'd personally scrap the cutters and have custom boarding parties on RN ships.

What the RN needs is the next generation sloops (OPV/Survey/MCM replacements) and modern day small fast interceptor Patrol craft (of the MGB/MTB ilk).

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 May 2016, 12:42
by marktigger
there was article in mail about how many isolated harbours and marinas there are in uk and how they aren't policed. given out history of smuggling especially in isolated coastal areas we need to start doing allot more

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... gency.html

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 May 2016, 14:40
by Repulse
Retasking the 14 P2000s that are attached to the universitys would be a good start and also keeping the 3 batch 1 Rivers with ScanEagle in addition the 3 new ones. Problem is money, but it would be chicken feed compared to the potential cost of an even greater flood of migrants.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 May 2016, 23:55
by marktigger
its not just a seaborne response the Border guard and the police don't have the resources either

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 31 May 2016, 00:06
by marktigger
Repulse wrote:
marktigger wrote:looks like border force needs cutters closer to home with more RN OPV's

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36407685


Agreed, it's just the start. With an increase in illegal migration, terrorism and Russian sub incursions it's time the UK got serious about its EEZ. It will also need to contend with friction over fisheries when we vote to leave.

I'd personally scrap the cutters and have custom boarding parties on RN ships.

What the RN needs is the next generation sloops (OPV/Survey/MCM replacements) and modern day small fast interceptor Patrol craft (of the MGB/MTB ilk).


the OPV/Surv/MCMV sloop will end up with fewer hulls doing the same number of taskings so with no spare capicity
I would back MAFF,BGS and customs boarding officers as part of a RN patrol force the Kiwis do it.
as to more coastal vessels i think the BGS STAN sutters would be good in this role of for faster smaller the CB90.

there needs to be an expansion the 5 rivers being built at present should loose the global role and be home only. the 3 batch 1 should go to the BGS as additional vessels.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 31 May 2016, 11:11
by Engaging Strategy
Repulse wrote:Retasking the 14 P2000s that are attached to the universitys would be a good start and also keeping the 3 batch 1 Rivers with ScanEagle in addition the 3 new ones. Problem is money, but it would be chicken feed compared to the potential cost of an even greater flood of migrants.


As much as raiding the P2000 fleet to bolster EEZ protection seems attractive on the surface, having been aboard them first hand I can tell you that they're really not suitable for that sort of work. Sure, with the new engines they can go like the clappers but their sea state limitations are pretty severe and they can't carry enough people for an adequate boarding team. Nor can they carry a decent seaboat. Personally I wouldn't like to contemplate doing a bump transfer of a boarding team from a ship that rolls around like nobody's business in anything more than a sea state 2!

Better to leave them in the current navigation and command training role with flag flying and drumming up recruits through the URNUs as useful add-ons.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 31 May 2016, 13:54
by marktigger
something like the STAN 4207 would be a good option