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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 11 Jun 2016, 21:04
by Caribbean
shark bait wrote:The cutters should be focusing on UK waters

I suspect that the use of the cutters, rather than the Rivers, is, at least in part, political. When we had Bulwark in the Med, the Italians tried to suggest that we should take everyone rescued by her as refugees in the UK, since they had effectively landed on UK sovereign territory and were thus in a safe refuge. We kept landing them in Italy, but the Italians weren't very happy and may actually have a case that everyone that Bulwark rescued was effectively "in a safe country", so they (the Italians) had a legal right to refuse to accept them as refugees. Fairly soon after, we sent the cutters, which have limited rescue capacity and would not be capable of transporting them safely back to the UK. That way, we can still claim that we are "doing something", while also ensuring that anyone rescued gets legitimately landed elsewhere.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 12 Jun 2016, 16:47
by Galloglass
"We're going to need a bigger boat"

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 28 Jun 2016, 09:47
by GibMariner
Lord West on Border Force not having enough cutters, suggests RN contribute P2000s as an emergency measure: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683826 ... el-EU-vote

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 05:02
by Caribbean
GibMariner wrote:Lord West on Border Force not having enough cutters, suggests RN contribute P2000s as an emergency measure: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683826 ... el-EU-vote


I love some of the phrases in that report
"watertight coastal security" - one would hope that everything was watertight
"a sudden spike in inflatable boats" - yup - that would stop them

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 09:57
by GibMariner
Patrol Craft:Written question - 41012

Asked by Michael Fabricant
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will make an assessment of the potential merits of the use of Archer type naval vessels to augment the coast guard.

Answered by: Penny Mordaunt
The Royal Navy (RN) operates the Archer Class P2000 ships to support the activities of the University RN Units, as well as general navigation and seamanship training.
In line with the principles of Military Aid to Civil Authorities, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) assesses the suitability of various capabilities, not just the P2000 Class, to achieve an effect when support is requested by another Government Department for a specific task. The MOD continues to be involved in the Government's contingency planning activity, but currently there is no formal request for MOD to supply assets in support of the coast guard.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... -20/41012/

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 Jun 2016, 10:10
by marktigger
shark bait wrote:linking back to our earlier discussion Mark, this is the kind of role where endurance of a river class type is required. The cutters should be focusing on UK waters, allowing the rivers to contribute to maritime security beyond the channel in situations just like this.



they are what's available NOW not in 2-3 years time. The P2000 could be useful but given what sea conditions in the likes of the Channel/Irish Sea round the South west and the atlantic round Northern scotland And endurance along the east coast. They might have some use but like all defence you need layers.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 03 Aug 2016, 06:30
by Ianmb17
Border force ordered eight more boats

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36960905

Four already?

Its report added: "Only four of the new vessels are currently deployed and the remaining four will not be available for more than a year."

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/natio ... fd3f549-ds

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 03 Aug 2016, 07:38
by shark bait
They're small coastal patrol RHIBs which will be based out of 4 hubs, Cornwall, Thames, Humber and another on the south coast. Its a good development but its not the extra cutters we could also do with.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 10 Aug 2016, 13:41
by ArmChairCivvy
What do the Uni Sqrns' "patrol" boats do outside term time?
- not too late for a bit of Lend&Lease?
- while we wait for more of the (smaller) RHIBs

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 10 Aug 2016, 18:24
by SKB
8 rubber dinghys.... :roll:

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 10 Aug 2016, 19:55
by bobp
SKB wrote:8 rubber dinghys....


Plastic ducks with little hooks on top are more useful.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 10 Aug 2016, 22:27
by Spinflight
SKB wrote:8 rubber dinghys....


Maybe it is clever reverse psychology.

"Look Abdul, you cousin was wrong! The UK cannot be the land of milk and honey, they can't even afford a steel boat!"

"You're right Ahkmed, lets head for Lithuania instead"

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 11 Aug 2016, 00:46
by Engaging Strategy
ArmChairCivvy wrote:What do the Uni Sqrns' "patrol" boats do outside term time?


Deploy out of area with students aboard on flag flying missions all over the UK and Western Europe.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 11 Aug 2016, 07:18
by ArmChairCivvy
Redirect to the Channel?
- must consult with the Head of the Students' Union first

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 Oct 2016, 13:04
by dmereifield
Wasn't sure where to put this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... e-monitor/

Just the one though.....

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 29 Oct 2016, 17:57
by Dahedd
There's a definite case for fixed wing mpas to be operated by the Coast Guard. Props like the Jetstream in the link or how's about refurbished Hercules as the RAF retire them (herc could do long range SAR as well, chucking stuff out the back.

Also I'd give the River b1 to the Borderforce & lease some offshore support vessels that are going cheap just now.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 08:44
by marktigger
For covering areas round the SW (Dorset, Devon and Cornwall) the Rivers are good but the closest points smugglers will take is straits of Dover. But particularly people smugglers will switch to more isolated areas if patrols increase.
As to aircraft the King Airs that are being retired from Multi engine training could be converted by the contractor to patrol aircraft and leased to the Border agency.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 10:37
by RichardIC
marktigger wrote:As to aircraft the King Airs that are being retired from Multi engine training could be converted by the contractor to patrol aircraft and leased to the Border agency.


The RN already has four Avengers optimised for maritime work....

Image

... although they have a day job to be getting on with too.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 10:47
by marktigger
RichardIC wrote:
marktigger wrote:As to aircraft the King Airs that are being retired from Multi engine training could be converted by the contractor to patrol aircraft and leased to the Border agency.


The RN already has four Avengers optimised for maritime work....

Image

... although they have a day job to be getting on with too.


sort of they are observer training aircraft and the RAF has Shadow as well

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 10:57
by marktigger
such a shame that BaE stopped producing the Jetstream 31 & 41 when they decided to concentrate on dominating the military market

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 12:56
by shark bait
Good news on the aircraft, exactly what we need. One is a good start, lets hope it continues to be expanded.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 13:00
by shark bait
marktigger wrote:For covering areas round the SW (Dorset, Devon and Cornwall) the Rivers are good


The rivers aren't good, they're too big and slow to counter the small ad-hoc nature of smugglers. Aircraft and smaller faster craft are a more suitable response.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 13:02
by marktigger
shark bait wrote:
marktigger wrote:For covering areas round the SW (Dorset, Devon and Cornwall) the Rivers are good


The rivers aren't good, they're too big and slow to counter the small ad-hoc nature of smugglers. Aircraft and smaller faster craft are a more suitable response.


but they have the sea keeping capability to stay on station in more exposed waters and they do carry RIBS for intercepts.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 13:30
by donald_of_tokyo
Jetstreem 41 for "Coast Guard" is nice.

In Japan, we have 9x DHC-8-Q300 and 9x Beechcraft350, and 4x Saab340B, along with 2x GulfstreamV and 2x Falcon 900 for long range duties.

But, how about Islander/Defender? It is more "British" origin, already 9 are operated with Army, and cheap. Its range is "similar" to our Dash-8 = not too short.

Re: Border Force Cutters.

Posted: 30 Oct 2016, 14:03
by marktigger
islander/defender would be a good option for short patrols.