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Border Force Cutters.

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Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 01 Jun 2015, 12:50

Ok not royal navy I know but some interesting news, and seems to be doing the job on the navy in the Mediterranean which shows an amazing amount of flexibility of the border force to deploy abroad, well done chaps!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bord ... ue-mission

Border Force officers were among a rescue team that saved more than 100 migrants in the Mediterranean yesterday, including three small children and three heavily pregnant women.

HMC Protector, one of Border Force’s cutters, was on patrol for Operation Triton south of Sicily yesterday afternoon when it was alerted by the Italian Marine Rescue Co-Ordination Centre in Rome to a migrant boat in distress 60 miles from the coast of Libya.

A total of 104 migrants have now been taken to Lampedusa, among them were 51 men, 50 women and three small children.

HMC Protector and HMC Seeker, two of the Border Force cutter fleet, were deployed to Frontex’s Operation Triton in order to support search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean


Heres the type of vessel in question. (Thats not a gun on the front its a water cannon :lol: )

Image

Proof small cheap vessels can be useful.
Exactly what the UK needs more of in my opinion. Saves us wasting out real sips on menial tasks. Preforming the role just as well as a light frigate/corvette, but for a fraction of the cost.

border force Scottish fisheries and royal navy all doing similar things. Soon the UK will have a fleet 15 offshore patrol vessels (plus numerous helos and 2 planes) should they perhaps all be brought together? perhaps a coastguard subset within the navy?
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby SKB » 01 Jun 2015, 13:06

RN or Customs? I think these cutters would come under Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, as the RN already has an HMS Protector (Ice Patrol Ship).

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 01 Jun 2015, 13:14

neither, they're part of the border force which comes under the home office.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Dahedd » 02 Jun 2015, 17:53

"Thinking out loud" here.

Why not merge the Border Force, Customs, Fishery Protection & Coast Guard into one. utilise the Cutters, RN River Class & some support ships/tugs. Search & Rescue choppers & a fixed wing MPA such as a Casa or reroled ex RAF Hercules ?

Too radical ? Stepping on too many toes ? Certainly would relieve pressure on the RN & allow any future RAF MPA to concentrate on military ops as opposed to SAR ?

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby Tiny Toy » 03 Jun 2015, 08:46

Dahedd wrote:Why not merge the Border Force, Customs, Fishery Protection & Coast Guard into one. utilise the Cutters, RN River Class & some support ships/tugs. Search & Rescue choppers & a fixed wing MPA such as a Casa or reroled ex RAF Hercules ?

Thing is that operating aircraft is a pretty expensive business. The FAA already has to train for naval SAR and MEDEVAC and maintain helos for this purpose, so taking responsibility for the (generally pretty small number of) civilian SAR cases that it does is (1) not particularly distracting from other duties, and (2) good training. Also RN patrols are armed which provides a greater deterrent for fisheries offenders and the fact that they can scale up quickly means that offenders can't just arm themselves knowing that they can only ever face police with popguns.

So I agree about consolidating these different agencies into one (actually I think it's shameful that RNLI is funded as a charity and not out of general taxation, it should really be a proper state service), but at least in the case of Coast Guard and fishery protection agencies (SFPA, MFA) there should continue to be a high level of integration between civilian functions (which do the paperwork) and naval elements (which provide security and emergency expertise).

In fact, instead of finding ways to delineate and separate military and naval functions from civilian ones, in general we should be trying to find areas of commonality where civilian agencies and the armed services can work together. The reason for this from the armed services POV is that the general populace can then start to understand more of the value of the armed services (since they see them operating in ordinary civilian life) and will be less keen to cut defence budgets, as well as the reason from the civvy POV which is that you improve efficiency by sharing resources which taxation has already paid for. China's President Xi Jinping understands this and China is strengthening civil-military integration across the board.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 08 Jun 2015, 17:40

Dahedd wrote:"Thinking out loud" here.

Why not merge the Border Force, Customs, Fishery Protection & Coast Guard into one. utilise the Cutters, RN River Class & some support ships/tugs. Search & Rescue choppers & a fixed wing MPA such as a Casa or reroled ex RAF Hercules ?

Too radical ? Stepping on too many toes ? Certainly would relieve pressure on the RN & allow any future RAF MPA to concentrate on military ops as opposed to SAR ?


Quite radical, but in the search for additional efficiencies it seems reasonable to merge these capabilities under a single banner. There will undoubtedly be some duplication of capability within those individual organisations meaning a merger could create a capability that is greater than the sum of its parts if done well. (sorry for the cliché :lol: )

Saw this nice shot today, made me think some ships would look good in those colours too! Her Majesty's Coastguard has a deep heritage, would be good to see it continue so why not add those to HMCG?




EDIT:

Just looking at the US coast guard and noticed they operate the same cutters as the UK borderforce.
UK operate Damen Stan 4200 patrol vessels, and the US operate a slightly modified version, shown below.
Swap the US for HM and its all good!

Image
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby SKB » 08 Jun 2015, 17:56

I think a nice coat of neon-yellow paint would be more fitting, maybe with some contrasting blue 'Battenburg' checkered patterning. Well, it is kind of the 'Sea Police' isn't it? Home Office controlled too. Maybe some flashing lights and sirens too ;)

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby arfah » 08 Jun 2015, 18:05

..............
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Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 08 Jun 2015, 18:10

arfah wrote:It would be a funding bun fight across several departments.

HMRC - The Exchequer
Border force - Home Office
Fisheries protection - Department for Fisheries and Rural Affairs.
HM Coastguard - ?

Not one single department would want the financial burden of 3 or 4 others.


HM Coastguard - Department for transport.
Add to that list the fisheries protection squadron - Ministry of defence.

You are correct, lots of different departments, scrapping for funding.
However I think that is the point, all those different departments their is bound to be many duplicate capabilities, and with that wasted money.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby SKB » 08 Jun 2015, 18:20

UKBF 42m Cutter (Damen Stan 'Patrol' Type 4207)
Image

Introduction
The UKBF 42m Cutter, formerly HMRC 42m Customs Cutter & UKBA 42m Customs Cutter, is a class of four patrol vessels, derived from the Dutch Damen Stan Patrol 4207 design, operated by the UK Border Force.

Construction
The class were built to the Damen Stan Patrol 4207 design in the Damen Shipyards in the Netherlands between 2001 and 2004, and have a steel hull with an aluminium superstructure. Much effort has been expended in making them quiet to reduce crew fatigue; their engines are raft-mounted, decks throughout the ships are of a floating type, and their compartments are constructed on a box-within-a-box principle.

A 7-metre (23 ft) Rigid Inflatable Boat (RIB) can be launched from the stern slipway. They are fitted with a 2,000-litre (440 imp gal) per minute fire fighting system for dealing with fires in other ships.

Name prefix
The Inland Revenue and HM Customs and Excise Departments merged to form HM Revenue and Customs on 18 April 2005, and from this time customs cutters changed their prefix from "HMRC" (Her Majesty's Revenue Cutter) to "HMCC" (Her Majesty's Customs Cutter). Following transfer to the UK Border Agency this was shortened to the current HMC (Her Majesty's Cutter) and a new livery applied to the fleet of cutters.

Propulsion
The class are fitted with twin Caterpillar 3516B DI-TA Elec engines driving twin 4-bladed controllable-pitch propellers through a pair of 3.5:1 reduction gearboxes. The total installed power of 4,176 kW (5,600 hp) gives them a top speed of 26 knots (48 km/h). A single Promac bow thruster is fitted for slow speed manoeuvring in confined spaces. Electrical power is supplied by a pair of 106 kVA generators.

Armament
Customs cutters are not normally armed with fixed firearms, nor are crews normally armed. What is often taken to be a gun on the bow of UKBA cutters is in fact a water hose. When necessary, the Royal Navy, whose ships are armed, can be asked for assistance.


1. HMC Seeker (Callsign: ZQNL2) Launched 2001
2. HMC Searcher (Callsign: ZQNK9) Launched 2002
3. HMC Vigilant (Callsign: ZITI4) Launched 2003
4. HMC Valiant (Callsign: MBLL8) Launched 2004

Class and type: UKBF 42m Customs Cutter
Length: 42.80 m (140.4 ft)[1]
Beam: 7.11 m (23.3 ft)[1]
Draught: 2.52 m (8.3 ft)[1]
Installed power: 4,176 kW (5,600 hp)
Propulsion:
Two Caterpillar 3516B DI-TA Elec
Two 3.5:1 reduction gearboxes
Two 4-blade controllable pitch propellers
One Promac bow thruster
Two 106 kVA generator sets
Speed: 26 knots (48 km/h)
Range: 1,750 nmi (3,240 km) at 12 kn
Endurance: 14 days
Boats and landing craft carried:
One 7 m RIB (32 kn)
One 3.8 m Rescue Boat
Complement: 12

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby SKB » 08 Jun 2015, 18:27

There is also a fifth cutter, HMC Protector (of the Telkkä class), brought into service in 2014.
Image

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 08 Jun 2015, 19:11

yes we only got protector 2nd hand from the Finnish border guard.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby GibMariner » 24 Sep 2015, 15:03

Border Force cutters HMC Protector & HMC Seeker to return to the UK after Mediterranean deployment:
Two UK Border Force vessels, HMC Protector and the HMC Seeker, will arrive in Gibraltar’s Naval Base on Sunday on a scheduled stopover on their way home at the end of their deployment to the FRONTEX Operation Triton.

Both vessels have been heavily involved in the search and rescue mission as part of the wider European response to the migrant crisis off the coasts of Italy and Libya.


http://www.yourgibraltartv.com/politics ... -gibraltar

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 17 Dec 2015, 23:25

GibMariner wrote:Border Force cutters HMC Protector & HMC Seeker to return to the UK after Mediterranean deployment:


Excellent work form the ship and crew.

I wonder if you will see more of these passing through Gib now their is a focus on a bigger stronger frontex.

If we are staying in Europe it needs a proper border force / coast guard and I guess these are the teams that will contribute to that effort.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 19 Dec 2015, 10:29

we have a different set up from the US where their customs is a paramilitary force that does marine law enforcement and SAR and in times of war becomes part of the navy I met deployed coasties in Iraq.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 19 Dec 2015, 10:35

yes the damen vessels are goo but do think a bore integrated approach is needed with jointly manned and funded vessels from a variety of agencies like MAF border patrol etc

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 21 Dec 2015, 12:54

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/French- ... story.html

another reason we need a rethink of how we protect our coastline. Yes smuggling has been part of the history of the South West but in the past we could do more about trying to stop it!

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby arfah » 21 Dec 2015, 16:50

...............
-<>-<>-<>-

Why this forum is pish!

1: Ineffective moderators
2: Too many fantasists ruining dedicated equipment threads with notions of what gun/mortar/artillery/missiles the equipment should have because it makes their panties moist.

marktigger
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 27 Dec 2015, 23:35

wonder if any of the retired MCMV's will be sold or given to the Border guard as patrol vessels?

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 27 Dec 2015, 23:42

marktigger wrote:wonder if any of the retired MCMV's will be sold or given to the Border guard as patrol vessels?


The border force aren't going to be chasing much down in the slow mine hunters unfortunately.

Perhaps if they could sell the three Sandown-class and the 3 river class they could fund another batch of cutters from Damen.

Maybe then they could take over the fisheries protection role fom the RN, leaving the rivers to do global patrols.

Currently the environment agency pays the MOD around £8million per year to board and inspect fishing vessels. Instead those funds could be allocated to the border force, where the money would probably spread further with them operating cheaper vessel and smaller crews.

Possibility here for better fisheries protection, and bigger global patrols for the Royal Navy
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 28 Dec 2015, 00:02

Just found this. It seems be bought one of our cutters from a newspaper advert. :D

Image

It was printed in Norway's biggest newspaper
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 28 Dec 2015, 01:48

shark bait wrote:Just found this. It seems be bought one of our cutters from a newspaper advert. ...
It was printed in Norway's biggest newspaper

Great work, Shark bait-san! Interesting to read the specifications. What happened to the 2 other vessels, do anybody know?

If the 3 B.1 Rivers be in the same situation, Border force will buy it?

I am sad to say may be not. BF are looking for more "less capable" = cheaper vessels, look like. They will be seriously under funded.

Navy may "present" these 3 OPVs to BF. But I am not sure BF will be happy with it. But, in the case BF are to go to Med much frequently, yes, they will happy to get B.1 Rivers.

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby shark bait » 28 Dec 2015, 10:19

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I am sad to say may be not. BF are looking for more "less capable" = cheaper vessels, look like. They will be seriously under funded.

Navy may "present" these 3 OPVs to BF. But I am not sure BF will be happy with it. But, in the case BF are to go to Med much frequently, yes, they will happy to get B.1 Rivers.


I think they would be too big and expensive for the border force. Their cutter's are half the size and perfect for the job.
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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby marktigger » 28 Dec 2015, 10:33

thats why a multi agency approach is a better idea

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Re: Border Force Cutters.

Postby WhiteWhale » 29 Dec 2015, 20:39

Hasn't the old Triton research ship been doing border patrol for the Ozzies the past decade or so? I wonder how that has been working out as it was a shame to see the project go nowhere.


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