UK Defence Forum

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I think it was arfah who mentioned that the other lift was removed.

What has kept surprising me is that the lights for night time helo ops were also removed; as if you would not need to bring in casualties 24/7 when the situation so dictates
- they may have become redundant for training purposes, but still?
- or, are such facilities considered to "weaponise" the ship as a whole?

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Ok, and anyway, the reason quoted was a "not so good" experience from aviation ops/ training

yeap shes far to stable a ship

I'll be interested in seeing the final SSS design as I wouldn't be surprised to see significant hospital facilities on all 3, which would reduce the need to have a PCRS.

I still feel there is a gap on the Aviation training front, but am wondering if it could/will be outsourced to a commercial provider. Also, our new Rivers could also be used for training perhaps.

Repulse wrote:I'll be interested in seeing the final SSS design as I wouldn't be surprised to see significant hospital facilities on all 3, which would reduce the need to have a PCRS.

I still feel there is a gap on the Aviation training front, but am wondering if it could/will be outsourced to a commercial provider. Also, our new Rivers could also be used for training perhaps.

given the way RFA's have been getting more enhanced medical facilities that is probable however you then loose things like the ICU capability, Imaging like CT scanner, labs (there are some strains of dysentry with Argus in their names after being first found in Argus's labs on Tellic 1) med resupply could become fragmented Argus was able to replace 50% of one of one of the commando's RAP in less than 6 hours when the RAF binned a RAP BV210 on the Al Faw the pictures I saw in a "what we did in our holidays" presentation were fairly spectacular. BV210's don't like the sudden stop at the bottom!

arfah wrote:

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I think it was arfah who mentioned that the other lift was removed.

Not me, Gabriele?

One of the aircraft lifts was covered years ago with a new superstructure which is the entrance to the medical facility. I understand there is a different kind of elevator now, for stretched casualties rather than for helos.

Repulse wrote:I'll be interested in seeing the final SSS design as I wouldn't be surprised to see significant hospital facilities on all 3, which would reduce the need to have a PCRS.

I dont think its possible to cram an Argus replacement into the SSS. Argus has significant facilities spread out over three decks, 4th is the hanger, which would take up too much room in the SSS, which we are also tasking with RAS, Flight and amphib ops.

I think we are very likely to see aviation training go out to a PFI, these solutions already exist, and will help maintain the skills of the tailored air group without requiring hugely expensive carrier hours.

That still leave us without a role 3 hospital and HDAR ship, both capabilities should be retained, they both clearly have their value, Iraq and Sierra Leone demonstrate that. It would be highly preferable to buy the 4th bay back and convert her, but I understand the Australians also greatly value the bay class so not much chance there, in which case another civilian conversion seems reasonable.

Agree the specialist things argus brings from the medical point of view are real force multipliers.

I'm not going to argue that a dedicated replacement would be better, but unfortunately it is the most likely, with modular space to support some of the functions you describe.

but its also a force multiplier in terms of helicopter support, tranport etc Its a very flexible platform

you could well be right, and I worry that is going to put too much pressure on the SSS. We need a very high performance replenisher to maintain the carrier group, I would hate to see that compromised.

I would look towards a HMNZS Canterbury type conversion.

to be honest another containership conversion would work taking on board the lessons learnt with Argus & reliant and other ships from trade brought into service like Endurance and Protector. IMHO an ideal solution would be another Damen Enforcer type platform like the LPD(A) or Rotterdam/Galacia

there was a concept drawing of the Damen Enforcer 1800 which had a full flight deck, Or a Karel doorman configured as an avation support/pcrs vessel

shark bait wrote:you could well be right, and I worry that is going to put too much pressure on the SSS. We need a very high performance replenisher to maintain the carrier group, I would hate to see that compromised.

agreed.

I would look towards a HMNZS Canterbury type conversion.

I like your Point conversion. Let's try to make it NOT "singleton vessel", showing up in (almost) EVERY document when a ship is decommissioned earlier. (e.g. Diligence)

Would a conversion of one of the two released point ships serve as a replacement of Argus as the were built to an enhanced standard rather than a pure mercantile hull ?

i'd be very wary about the idea of putting the flightdeck ahead of the superstructure.

marktigger wrote:i'd be very wary about the idea of putting the flightdeck ahead of the superstructure.

May be you are right. But, I try to convince myself from the fact that Echo has it. Also some other vessels do. Are there any problem with it? What should be noted is that the flight deck itself is large. Not a small spot right before the bridge.

the deck on the echo from the published pictures isn't used that much and is more a landing spot for RAS

in discussions on future amphibious fleet it keeps coming up and back to an Argus type support ship. From the point of view of Avations support, aircraft transport, stores support Argus is a huge force multiplyer and certainly needs replacement. Be it with a bespoke vessel or another conversion.

but I would also suggest she would be an excellent platform for MCMV command and support. Pity we didn't buy her sister as well and get H&W to convert her to!

She has definitely proved to be valuable, but she has also demonstrate she is not a high performance asset. As such it is very much limited to a support function, and as long as we are aware of that, and use her as such there is clearly value in the type to support core specialist assets.

The options appear to be:

1. Conversion of a merchant vessel (much like the existing Argus)
2. Construction of a dedicated platform
3. Inclusion of a Role 3 capability with a future amphibious platform

Options 1 and 2 will end up with a singleton ship. Only option 3 holds the possibility of having 2 ships with a Role 3 medical facility.

The difficulty with option 3 is timing. Argus has an OSD of about 2025, whereas the OSD of the Bay Class LSD is about 10 years later.

Could we get away with constructing two new Mk2 Bay Class LSDs with Role 3 capabilities with an ISD of 2025? Probably only if we sell off one or two of the current LSD at the same time as we scrap Argus. I'm sure a few countries would be interested if we put a Bay LSD on the market.

its a possibility going to bay Mk2 but we need the carrying capicity and to a large extent the layout and dimensions of argus. I'd be tempted to build or convert 2 sisters but fit one with PCRS and one with enhanced command and communications almost like a HQ ship

Even the USN can only afford two HQ ships
"USS Blue Ridge (LCC-19) is the lead ship of the two Blue Ridge–class command ships of the United States Navy, and is the command ship of the United States Seventh Fleet. Her primary role is to provide command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence (C4I) support to the commander and staff of the United States Seventh Fleet. She is currently forward-deployed to U.S. Navy Fleet Activities, Yokosuka in Japan"

We did have command frigates, but could not afford to man them... so off to the scrap yard