RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

[Engaging Strategy]

where are the "spare" NHS staff going to come from? The NHS has Major shortages of staff to keep itself running before you bring in expensive and irrelevant side shows to its core functions.

Run it as a joint programme, integrating military and civilian medical staff. Compared to the overall requirements of the NHS a handful of doctors on a hospital ship is hardly going to exacerbate their staff shortages in a meaningful way. Look at it as an investment in training for medical staff, one that also raises the profile of the profession and keeps it in the public eye, thus helping with recruitment. As I've said before, funds would be drawn from the aid budget.

BTW you talk about the "NHS" as if its a single entity like the Royal Navy or Royal Fleet Auxilary........guess what it isn't nurses and doctors aren't employed by the "NHS" they are employed by (in England) one of

154 acute trusts (including 101 foundation trusts)
56 mental health trusts (including 43 foundation trusts)
37 community providers (15 NHS trusts, 3 foundation trusts and 19 social enterprises)
10 ambulance trusts (including 5 foundation trusts)
7,875 GP practices
853 for-profit and not-for-profit independent sector organisations, providing care to NHS patients from 7,331 locations

and Scotland, wales and Northern ireland have similar set ups.

The NHS is a Brand name it is not and never has been an integrated organisation!

Simple solution: take volunteers with the necessary specialist skills and fill any gaps with military medical personnel.

[marktigger]

where are the "spare" NHS staff going to come from? The NHS has Major shortages of staff to keep itself running before you bring in expensive and irrelevant side shows to its core functions.

Run it as a joint programme, integrating military and civilian medical staff. Compared to the overall requirements of the NHS a handful of doctors on a hospital ship is hardly going to exacerbate their staff shortages in a meaningful way. Look at it as an investment in training for medical staff, one that also raises the profile of the profession and keeps it in the public eye, thus helping with recruitment. As I've said before, funds would be drawn from the aid budget.

BTW you talk about the "NHS" as if its a single entity like the Royal Navy or Royal Fleet Auxilary........guess what it isn't nurses and doctors aren't employed by the "NHS" they are employed by (in England) one of

154 acute trusts (including 101 foundation trusts)
56 mental health trusts (including 43 foundation trusts)
37 community providers (15 NHS trusts, 3 foundation trusts and 19 social enterprises)
10 ambulance trusts (including 5 foundation trusts)
7,875 GP practices
853 for-profit and not-for-profit independent sector organisations, providing care to NHS patients from 7,331 locations

and Scotland, wales and Northern ireland have similar set ups.

The NHS is a Brand name it is not and never has been an integrated organisation!

Simple solution: take volunteers with the necessary specialist skills and fill any gaps with military medical personnel.

military nurses and doctors have been counted as integral parts of the trust they work in staff for many years since the end of the military hospitals that is what the MDHU system means, show me in Derriford, frimley or any of the other trusts that have MDHU the "Military" ward they don't exist the military staff are spread across the hospital as part of the trust staff.

[donald_of_tokyo]

here's a though before I turn in for the night.

Convert the wave class into replacements for Argus and Diligence, and order another 2 tides from Korea, leaving the RFA with a modern, high commonality, high capability fleet.

They might both look like bigger versions of this. ...

Why not just build Argus and Diligence replacements "based on Tides" hull, and just let the Waves as it is? Surely this will be cheaper.

[marktigger]

why not for the dilligence replacement just buy a nearly new vessel and convert it.

For Argus build a 4th solid stores support ship to a design that has a large area that would allow a modular facility to be installed but also with hangerage to carry more helicopters than required?

Or an LPH(D) class to replace Albion and Bulwark with a 3rd built as an RFA to do the Argus role?

[Pseudo]

where are the "spare" NHS staff going to come from? The NHS has Major shortages of staff to keep itself running before you bring in expensive and irrelevant side shows to its core functions.

Run it as a joint programme, integrating military and civilian medical staff. Compared to the overall requirements of the NHS a handful of doctors on a hospital ship is hardly going to exacerbate their staff shortages in a meaningful way. Look at it as an investment in training for medical staff, one that also raises the profile of the profession and keeps it in the public eye, thus helping with recruitment. As I've said before, funds would be drawn from the aid budget.

BTW you talk about the "NHS" as if its a single entity like the Royal Navy or Royal Fleet Auxilary........guess what it isn't nurses and doctors aren't employed by the "NHS" they are employed by (in England) one of

154 acute trusts (including 101 foundation trusts)
56 mental health trusts (including 43 foundation trusts)
37 community providers (15 NHS trusts, 3 foundation trusts and 19 social enterprises)
10 ambulance trusts (including 5 foundation trusts)
7,875 GP practices
853 for-profit and not-for-profit independent sector organisations, providing care to NHS patients from 7,331 locations

and Scotland, wales and Northern ireland have similar set ups.

The NHS is a Brand name it is not and never has been an integrated organisation!

Simple solution: take volunteers with the necessary specialist skills and fill any gaps with military medical personnel.

I'd imagine that it'd actually be less disruptive to the NHS to have staff that are enrolled on joint programmes and whose absence can be planned for than having staff volunteering for emergency programmes as and when international medical emergencies such as Ebola occur.

[marktigger]

the key specialties required for a vessel of this type are actually some of the Specialties that are in shortest supply especially with the degree of experience needed. If you ask for volunteers you cannot garuntee you'll get the specialties with the level of experience you want or need.
The government a few years ago floated the Idea of an NHS volunteer pool for disaster relief etc.....it disappeared into the mist.

[shark bait]

Why not just build Argus and Diligence replacements "based on Tides" hull, and just let the Waves as it is? Surely this will be cheaper

Could do, but I don't think that solution is a nice as having a common fleet of tankers. Tides also have reduced crew which the RFA would welcome.

Both of our proposals will be more expensive than civilian conversions because they require constructing new platforms. The justification for the hight purchasing cost is it may be cheaper in the long run by removing two unique types and maximising commonality. If that is not the case then straight out civilian conversions are the correct choice.

(The SSS should also be a copy of the tides, leaving the RFA with a common replenishment fleet which should ensure the long time sustainability of the service)

[donald_of_tokyo]

Why not just build Argus and Diligence replacements "based on Tides" hull, and just let the Waves as it is? Surely this will be cheaper

Could do, but I don't think that solution is a nice as having a common fleet of tankers. Tides also have reduced crew which the RFA would welcome.

I am not convinced. After you build the vessel, major maintenance work is on, propulsion system, and equipments such as RAS gears, navigation electronics, and networking assets, I guess. It is good to have the same RAS gears of Tides on Waves. Even navigation system and so on. But, complete re-arranging of a fleet tanker (Wave) to hospital AND aviation training ship is, I'm afraid, quite expensive. New built is surely much cheaer, you do not need to rip-off all the existing equipments and cut so many steels to makeup a space.

My point is;
1: Just built Argus replacements based on Tides (or SSS), shall be cheaper to build (for sure)
2: Number of propulsion system types is the same to your proposal. (2 Wave origin, 2(+4) Tides origin, 3 SSS origin)
3: Number of equipment gear is the same. It is important to make it common among Waves and Tides, I agree.

Both of our proposals will be more expensive than civilian conversions because they require constructing new platforms.

I am not convinced. Tides are almot civilian hull. Conversion is ALWAYS need cost. The only merit of getting civilian conversion is, when the ship is "not needed/out of date/not efficient" in merchant world, and you get it "almost free". Nothing else will make it cheap.

[marktigger]

using common hulls for the Argus replacement to my mind the Bay class is a good starting point if you could keep commonality with maybe an updated vessel.

the SSS replacement concept drawing i've seen looks like a redo of the Fort Victoria (which wouldn't be such a bad thing)

[rec]

Why not use the Dutch Karel Dooreman design, and build one as an Argus replacement, and one as an Ocean replacement.

[marktigger]

Why not use the Dutch Karel Dooreman design, and build one as an Argus replacement, and one as an Ocean replacement.

manning is the issue...i would suggest when Albion & Bulwark are replaced they are replaced with LPH(D)'s and 2 with the Royal Navy and a 3rd for the RFA as an Argus replacement maybe without the dock.

[rec]

Why not use the Dutch Karel Dooreman design, and build one as an Argus replacement, and one as an Ocean replacement.

manning is the issue...i would suggest when Albion & Bulwark are replaced they are replaced with LPH(D)'s and 2 with the Royal Navy and a 3rd for the RFA as an Argus replacement maybe without the dock.

That makes sense, why not one larger LPH dock with F35 capability, and 2 smaller just for rotary wing operations.

[marktigger]

making them F35 capable as FOB or secondary decks would be best option. so the Rotary wing smaller version would be unnecessary and we don't have the manpower to man them.

[shark bait]

But, complete re-arranging of a fleet tanker (Wave) to hospital AND aviation training ship is, I'm afraid, quite expensive. New built is surely much cheaer, you do not need to rip-off all the existing equipments and cut so many steels to makeup a space.

I'm not so sure, the good value of civilian conversions has been shown before. I really don't see the need for new new builds for Argus and Diligence, they are not high performance assets so we can afford to compromise with a civilian conversion, which will be cheaper than new build, and the saving invested into the main fleet instead, where it is needed most.

[marktigger]

conversions are tricky the costs and delays can quickly escalate and may still run into major problems later Argus is a good case in point some of the problems have only been addressed recently.

[marktigger]

Contender Bezant during conversion

[shark bait]

the problem with Argus is her other main role of PCRS which has major legal limitations on what she can/cannot do as well

Such as?

[arfah]

............

[marktigger]

yeap but she is carrying a medical facility with personnel under red cross protection and rules....so could she be used for an offensive operation like an amphibious assualt launching an "Offensive" weapon. Does her carrying ASW helicopters make her a legitimate target when she has PCRS deployed?

Argus is in a huge grey area of international law and how we choose to play that will influence how argus is viewed by a potential enemy.

Being brutally frank Hospital ships now with Antiship missiles are at huge risk as a missile cannot see the protective markings.

[SKB]

As stated previously, Argus isn't a hospital ship because hospital ships cannot be armed. Argus is armed (2 × Oerlikon 20 mm/85 KAA on GAM-BO1 mountings, 4 × 7.62mm GPMGs) and designated a "casualty receiving ship" instead.

[shark bait]

I am talking about replacing RFA Argus, currently active. I have a bit confused about the hangar size of Argus. But some report says her hangar is BIGGER than those of Invincible CVS. So, yes, Argus can be a good helicopter carrier. On the other hand, I am not sure it can be a good LPH, because "carrying" helicopters and "operating" them are a bit different.

But, yes, I am proposing to use Argus and its replacements as a "moving hangar" to support the single CVF (if in the unhappy 8 months). Note it is RFA vessel, and never be a real "luxury" LPH. This means, no large commando hotel, no large arsenal for Apache nor commandos, and low level of self defense, and shall better be located a bit far. Maintenance activity can be supported by the CVF's crew.

I don't think it is a good helicopter carrier, it didn't work well so they removed the second lift and focused it on the PCRS role. I'm sure the issues could be fixed with an Argus replacement though.

I'm not sure where the larger hangar comes from either, I seem to think it can house 6 Merlin. Perhaps before the other 3 decks we're converted to a hospital there was room for more aircraft on the other decks.

The auxiliary helicopter carrier is an interesting idea, how usable would it be though? doesn't sound good within a hostile environment. Does that take too much away from its PCRS role?

[arfah]

............

[marktigger]

RFA Argus cannot fly the red Cross as she is fitted with weapons.

Hospital ships do not mix with the fleet in a war zone but in a prior arranged area of sea/ocean as agreed between each opposing faction underwritten by the Red Cross/Red Crescent. The difference between land warfare and maritime warfare is that seas are neutral. In land warfare, Red Cross facilities exist in the territory of a belligerent.

The hospital ships of one faction are subject to inspection by the other faction and vice versa to ensure compliance.

and a decoyed Antiship missile knows where the redcross box is?

hospital ships are also limited in what electronic communication and navigation equipment they have.


The PCRS is a very very Grey area yes it has loads of adnvantages but if we use it for offensive operations and its attacked we can't really call foul can we!

[SKB]

Red Cross would operate a Red Cross ship, surely, not the RN?

[marktigger]

Red Cross would operate a Red Cross ship, surely, not the RN?

Hospital ships are operated by which ever country is employing them they fly the Red Cross and the national flag
on land Medical facilities fly the red cross and the national flag if over run the national flag is removed and the capturing nations one raised and the facility continues to operate until it can be evacuated.