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RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby shark bait » 13 Nov 2018, 13:50

Judging by previous conversions MV Cragside / HMNZS Canterbury we're looking at 30-60 million to convert a ship, that's a fraction of the £250 million the MOD spend on travel expenses each year. They have until 2024 to plan it in, shouldn't be too difficult.
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby SKB » 13 Nov 2018, 13:58

Is there a need for a new future aviation training ship too?

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby SW1 » 13 Nov 2018, 18:10

Tides have been doing aviation training recently.

If you pay for your hospital ship from dfid funds then who gets first call on it mod or dfid? There a need for the ship on an operation and there’s a natural disaster somewhere else who task it?

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Caribbean » 13 Nov 2018, 18:56

That's why you want more than one
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby R686 » 13 Nov 2018, 19:08

I agree on Jakes assessment, operated by Serco when the shit hits the fan it becomes STUFT, the only difference is it does not become an armed warship and still remains under Article 22 of the Geneva Convention rules on hospital ships



http://historicalrfa.org/stuft-ships

https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/ ... ension.htm

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Tempest414 » 15 Nov 2018, 08:48

I would have to say for me the best way to crew any new Hospital ship would be an extension to the Foreland ( Point class ) contract for the core crew which would mean they are required to be sponsored reserves as part of there service. the medical staff would come from the NHS and MOD

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Tempest414 » 15 Nov 2018, 10:09

SW1 wrote:If you pay for your hospital ship from dfid funds then who gets first call on it mod or dfid? There a need for the ship on an operation and there’s a natural disaster somewhere else who task it?


that would depend on the operation if it was a Falklands or Gulf war 1/2 affair or something else if it is a falklands job then it is a no brianer mod wins every time

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 12 Jan 2019, 11:52

Could this be one reason why an Argus replacement is not budgeted for?
Maybe this the way I planning is now heading. An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco and the PCRS capability moved to the proposed HADR platforms.

Might not be a bad outcome

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 12 Jan 2019, 11:57

Poiuytrewq wrote: An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco and the PCRS capability moved to the proposed HADR platforms.

Might not be a bad outcome


I agree.

So :) we buy the former from Damen Vietnam, and the latter from..?

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 12 Jan 2019, 13:02

ArmChairCivvy wrote:and the latter from..?
Anywhere in the UK :thumbup:

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 12 Jan 2019, 13:03

I guess UK is now doing aviation training in Wave and/or Tides?

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Repulse » 12 Jan 2019, 13:21

What people are forgetting is that RFA Argus as per her predecessor RFA Engadine has a Aviation Support role also. This will continue to be needed (probably more so) as we seem to be going from 3-4 Flatops (3 CVS + 1 LPH) plus RFA Argus in the late 90s down to 2 (albeit larger) deployable platforms. Given the importance, investment, and dare I say large size of the UKs helicopter fleet, a third dedicated flattop is a bare minimum IMO.
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Caribbean » 12 Jan 2019, 13:30

That would have been a good contract to throw Babcock's way - they already have experience of building to license with the Vard designs
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Jan 2019, 13:46

Both the Rotterdam and Johan de Witt have role 2 medical facilities and can support six or four Merlin sized helicopters respectively. The latter, operated by the RFA would make an ideal replacement for Argus, whilst also being part of the next generation ARG.

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Aethulwulf » 13 Jan 2019, 10:09

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I guess UK is now doing aviation training in Wave and/or Tides?
Aviation training should normally include operating from ships with more than one deck landing spot. This element of the training is what Argus provides, and can not be provided by Waves or Tides.

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 13 Jan 2019, 10:20

RAN’s aviation training ship, by Serco, has only one spot. French navy’s RFI ship also did not had multi-spot. So, many, if not all, of the training can be done on Waves and Tides?

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby shark bait » 14 Jan 2019, 07:41

Repulse wrote:What people are forgetting is that RFA Argus as per her predecessor RFA Engadine has a Aviation Support role also.

HAD an aviation support role, then deemed unnecessary and deleted with the conversion to a medical facility.

Poiuytrewq wrote:An aviation training vessel supplied by Serco

This sounds highly likely, both the French and Australians do this, I expect the UK will follow. It sounds like a cheap way to provide a training service, whilst keeping the valuable RFA focused on their core role.

My suggestion is don't replace Argus, instead moving the medical facilities to another platform, and contract an aviation training ship.

Maybe the MOD thing the same, worth noting the Argus is due out of service in 2024, but the future afloat medical capability is not due in service until 2035, which is about the same time as a new amphibious platform.
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Aethulwulf » 14 Jan 2019, 10:47

shark bait wrote:
Repulse wrote:What people are forgetting is that RFA Argus as per her predecessor RFA Engadine has a Aviation Support role also.

HAD an aviation support role, then deemed unnecessary and deleted with the conversion to a medical facility.

It was not just that it was deemed unnecessary, but also it was found during the Balkans conflict that Argus was incapable of adequately fulfilling that role.

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 14 Jan 2019, 10:52

Aethulwulf wrote:....it was found during the Balkans conflict that Argus was incapable of adequately fulfilling that role.
Were any recommendations made at the time as to what would have been more suitable? Something on the scale of Ocean perhaps?

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 14 Jan 2019, 11:18

shark bait wrote:My suggestion is don't replace Argus, instead moving the medical facilities to another platform, and contract an aviation training ship.
A Serco aviation training vessel seems highly likely at this stage although if 2 landing spots and a large hanger are required it will be very interesting as to what form it will take.

When you propose moving the PCRS facilities to another vessel are you suggesting an existing vessel?

If the Bay in the Caribbean was relieved by a decent sized commercial logistics vessel or a modified Wave, a Johan De Witt PCRS conversion of an existing Bay would be one possibility.

I would like to see what we have in the water maximised before looking to procure anything else.

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby shark bait » 14 Jan 2019, 11:47

The MOD needs a cheap way to maintain at sea hours for pilots for all three services, a contracted PSV is an easy way to achieve that.

I then suggest we build the future afloat medical capability into one of these;
  • The Waves replacement in 2030
  • The Bays replacement in 2032
  • The LPD replacement in 2035
There are in service examples of medical facilities on all of the above, just need to pick which is best for us.
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 14 Jan 2019, 12:02

shark bait wrote:The Waves replacement in 2030
The Bays replacement in 2032
The LPD replacement in 2035
There are in service examples of medical facilities on all of the above, just need to pick which is best for us.
If Argus decommissions in 2024 that would be between a 6 and 11 year gap. Surely this is unacceptable.

I don't disagree with your proposal in principle but it would need to include a suitable temporary arrangement to get from 2024 into the 2030's.

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby shark bait » 14 Jan 2019, 13:37

We know the MOD dont mind a gap, and under their current plan Look the future afloat medical capability comes in 2035. Perhaps its no coincidence thats the same date as the LPD replacements.

Is a gap really the end of the world?
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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Jake1992 » 14 Jan 2019, 13:47

shark bait wrote:We know the MOD dont mind a gap, and under their current plan Look the future afloat medical capability comes in 2035. Perhaps its no coincidence thats the same date as the LPD replacements.

Is a gap really the end of the world?


IMO we need to get out this habit of these gaps, politians who set the budget get far to use to gaps and keep thinking we can get away with it when it only takes once to be caught out ( regarding gaps over all no just Argus )

With the rising tension in the world the top brass need to kick the politians in to touch with this, but unfortunately too many top brass are happy to no rock the boat out of fear of losing out personally.

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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 14 Jan 2019, 13:48

shark bait wrote:Is a gap really the end of the world?
It may be if you are a casualty looking for a PCRS vessel to take care of you :D

Are the newly proposed HADR vessels aimed at plugging the gap?


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