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Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 03 Apr 2018, 17:59

Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
shark bait wrote:DFID? That has nothing to do with a Royal Yacht.

If the Private sector want to pay for one, and pay for ex-RN to crew it great, but no way can the MOD or any government departments justify the spending.


It could be used as a hospital ship just like the last one was.

As for no government department paying for it why not ? It would be used to drum up trade deals and diplotmatic relations so why shouldn't they ?

Your case for a Royal Yacht seems to be that it'd act as a floating embassy. I'd have to wonder what could be done in a floating embassy that would justify the expenditure that can't be done in the 129 British Embassies and Consulates worldwide?

As for your hospital ship idea, I'd be all for the idea of DFID commissioning one or two hospital ships that would be operated by the RFA and could be leased by the RN if necessary. They'd be a very visible symbol of the work DFID does and hugely effective in projecting soft power. Far more so than a Royal Yacht would be and a far better and more practical way to spend money.


Well to be fair the old royal yacht was pritty much a floating embassy, but the main thing the new one would be is a float PR simble for the UK as a whole, helping to push UK trade interests and forgian policy.

As today RN vessels are used to host a woah respective party's around the world a new Royal Yatch would do it much better, with the added benefit of a secondary hospital capabilty all for what £150m split between several different departments.

I'm think that even more 'woah' worthy than a Royal Yacht is a 70,000 tonne aircraft carrier, and the RN will have two of those in service soon enough. Put a massive marquee on the flight deck and I'd say you've got a perfect setting for pushing UK trade interests and foreign policy.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 03 Apr 2018, 18:30

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
shark bait wrote:DFID? That has nothing to do with a Royal Yacht.

If the Private sector want to pay for one, and pay for ex-RN to crew it great, but no way can the MOD or any government departments justify the spending.


It could be used as a hospital ship just like the last one was.

As for no government department paying for it why not ? It would be used to drum up trade deals and diplotmatic relations so why shouldn't they ?

Your case for a Royal Yacht seems to be that it'd act as a floating embassy. I'd have to wonder what could be done in a floating embassy that would justify the expenditure that can't be done in the 129 British Embassies and Consulates worldwide?

As for your hospital ship idea, I'd be all for the idea of DFID commissioning one or two hospital ships that would be operated by the RFA and could be leased by the RN if necessary. They'd be a very visible symbol of the work DFID does and hugely effective in projecting soft power. Far more so than a Royal Yacht would be and a far better and more practical way to spend money.


Well to be fair the old royal yacht was pritty much a floating embassy, but the main thing the new one would be is a float PR simble for the UK as a whole, helping to push UK trade interests and forgian policy.

As today RN vessels are used to host a woah respective party's around the world a new Royal Yatch would do it much better, with the added benefit of a secondary hospital capabilty all for what £150m split between several different departments.

I'm think that even more 'woah' worthy than a Royal Yacht is a 70,000 tonne aircraft carrier, and the RN will have two of those in service soon enough. Put a massive marquee on the flight deck and I'd say you've got a perfect setting for pushing UK trade interests and foreign policy.


I get your point but to me it's very wasteful using the QEs in that matter especially at the RN cost, where as a Royal Yatch would be payed for from other departments who's interestes they are pushing.

They last one help gain the UK billions in trade deals and was seen as a simble of the U.K. Just think what a new one could do as we try to regain our links with the commonwealth and strike new deals.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 03 Apr 2018, 18:36

Do you think if we turned the T31's into 5 Royal Yachts they could drum up enough trade so we could build 5 proper frigates :D

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 03 Apr 2018, 18:43

Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
shark bait wrote:DFID? That has nothing to do with a Royal Yacht.

If the Private sector want to pay for one, and pay for ex-RN to crew it great, but no way can the MOD or any government departments justify the spending.


It could be used as a hospital ship just like the last one was.

As for no government department paying for it why not ? It would be used to drum up trade deals and diplotmatic relations so why shouldn't they ?

Your case for a Royal Yacht seems to be that it'd act as a floating embassy. I'd have to wonder what could be done in a floating embassy that would justify the expenditure that can't be done in the 129 British Embassies and Consulates worldwide?

As for your hospital ship idea, I'd be all for the idea of DFID commissioning one or two hospital ships that would be operated by the RFA and could be leased by the RN if necessary. They'd be a very visible symbol of the work DFID does and hugely effective in projecting soft power. Far more so than a Royal Yacht would be and a far better and more practical way to spend money.


Well to be fair the old royal yacht was pritty much a floating embassy, but the main thing the new one would be is a float PR simble for the UK as a whole, helping to push UK trade interests and forgian policy.

As today RN vessels are used to host a woah respective party's around the world a new Royal Yatch would do it much better, with the added benefit of a secondary hospital capabilty all for what £150m split between several different departments.

I'm think that even more 'woah' worthy than a Royal Yacht is a 70,000 tonne aircraft carrier, and the RN will have two of those in service soon enough. Put a massive marquee on the flight deck and I'd say you've got a perfect setting for pushing UK trade interests and foreign policy.


I get your point but to me it's very wasteful using the QEs in that matter especially at the RN cost, where as a Royal Yatch would be payed for from other departments who's interestes they are pushing.

I don't agree that a week or so operating with the navy of the nation that you're looking to impress and then having a reception for politicians and business leaders one evening be wasteful. What would be wasteful is spending hundreds of millions on a yacht that the Royal Navy will end up operating when that money could be better spent on actual warfighting capability.
They last one help gain the UK billions in trade deals and was seen as a simble of the U.K. Just think what a new one could do as we try to regain our links with the commonwealth and strike new deals.

This is why we have one of the most extensive embassy and consulate networks in the world. I think that the practical soft power provided by dedicated hospital ships would be far more effective in making nations amenable to British commercial interests than a floating trade office would be.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 03 Apr 2018, 18:53

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
shark bait wrote:DFID? That has nothing to do with a Royal Yacht.

If the Private sector want to pay for one, and pay for ex-RN to crew it great, but no way can the MOD or any government departments justify the spending.


It could be used as a hospital ship just like the last one was.

As for no government department paying for it why not ? It would be used to drum up trade deals and diplotmatic relations so why shouldn't they ?

Your case for a Royal Yacht seems to be that it'd act as a floating embassy. I'd have to wonder what could be done in a floating embassy that would justify the expenditure that can't be done in the 129 British Embassies and Consulates worldwide?

As for your hospital ship idea, I'd be all for the idea of DFID commissioning one or two hospital ships that would be operated by the RFA and could be leased by the RN if necessary. They'd be a very visible symbol of the work DFID does and hugely effective in projecting soft power. Far more so than a Royal Yacht would be and a far better and more practical way to spend money.


Well to be fair the old royal yacht was pritty much a floating embassy, but the main thing the new one would be is a float PR simble for the UK as a whole, helping to push UK trade interests and forgian policy.

As today RN vessels are used to host a woah respective party's around the world a new Royal Yatch would do it much better, with the added benefit of a secondary hospital capabilty all for what £150m split between several different departments.

I'm think that even more 'woah' worthy than a Royal Yacht is a 70,000 tonne aircraft carrier, and the RN will have two of those in service soon enough. Put a massive marquee on the flight deck and I'd say you've got a perfect setting for pushing UK trade interests and foreign policy.


I get your point but to me it's very wasteful using the QEs in that matter especially at the RN cost, where as a Royal Yatch would be payed for from other departments who's interestes they are pushing.

I don't agree that a week or so operating with the navy of the nation that you're looking to impress and then having a reception for politicians and business leaders one evening be wasteful. What would be wasteful is spending hundreds of millions on a yacht that the Royal Navy will end up operating when that money could be better spent on actual warfighting capability.
They last one help gain the UK billions in trade deals and was seen as a simble of the U.K. Just think what a new one could do as we try to regain our links with the commonwealth and strike new deals.

This is why we have one of the most extensive embassy and consulate networks in the world. I think that the practical soft power provided by dedicated hospital ships would be far more effective in making nations amenable to British commercial interests than a floating trade office would be.


I agree with the use of the QEs in that respect I could just see them being used too much in that way at times.
I don't see the RN operating a new Royal Yatch the way I see it being done is for the funding coming from other departments ( DFID, Forgain Office, Department for International Trade ? ) and it being staffed in a similar way to the RFA set up.

Yes we have a vast embassy set up that do good work but a Royal Yatch would offer something different something more something that others really don't. Remember we had a vast embassy set while the last Yatch was around yet it still earned its money many many times over.

The hospital set up would just be a secondary addition just like the old one.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 03 Apr 2018, 19:23

Jake1992 wrote:I agree with the use of the QEs in that respect I could just see them being used too much in that way at times.

Fine. Build a couple of LHD's along the lines of the Mistral class to replace Ocean and Argus.
I don't see the RN operating a new Royal Yatch the way I see it being done is for the funding coming from other departments ( DFID, Forgain Office, Department for International Trade ? ) and it being staffed in a similar way to the RFA set up.

I can't think of any justification for DFID contributing to funding a Royal Yacht and I suspect that the FO and DIT's budgets will be stretched far enough dealing with the consequences of Brexit.
Yes we have a vast embassy set up that do good work but a Royal Yatch would offer something different something more something that others really don't. Remember we had a vast embassy set while the last Yatch was around yet it still earned its money many many times over.

If money were no object I'd have no objection to a Royal Yacht, but it is and it's likely to become more of an object as the consequences of Brexit manifest themselves. Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
The hospital set up would just be a secondary addition just like the old one.

Yes. I'm saying that actual dedicated hospital ships would be more useful and more effective in projecting soft power in a way that might make nations amenable to British commercial interests than a floating trade office would be.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 03 Apr 2018, 20:02

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I agree with the use of the QEs in that respect I could just see them being used too much in that way at times.

Fine. Build a couple of LHD's along the lines of the Mistral class to replace Ocean and Argus.
I don't see the RN operating a new Royal Yatch the way I see it being done is for the funding coming from other departments ( DFID, Forgain Office, Department for International Trade ? ) and it being staffed in a similar way to the RFA set up.

I can't think of any justification for DFID contributing to funding a Royal Yacht and I suspect that the FO and DIT's budgets will be stretched far enough dealing with the consequences of Brexit.
Yes we have a vast embassy set up that do good work but a Royal Yatch would offer something different something more something that others really don't. Remember we had a vast embassy set while the last Yatch was around yet it still earned its money many many times over.

If money were no object I'd have no objection to a Royal Yacht, but it is and it's likely to become more of an object as the consequences of Brexit manifest themselves. Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
The hospital set up would just be a secondary addition just like the old one.

Yes. I'm saying that actual dedicated hospital ships would be more useful and more effective in projecting soft power in a way that might make nations amenable to British commercial interests than a floating trade office would be.


So instead of spend £150m odd from other departments to help free up RN vessels from the PR jobs you surgest spending £2-£3bn on 2 LHDs to help do the jobs ?
Don't get me wrong I honestly belive the RN needs 2 large LHDs but finding just isn't there.

If the MOD has to pick up the bill for desaster relief instead of DFID and the DFID being shown time and time again to be very wasteful with its huge budget ( larger than the home office now ) just to meet its silly target then least it can do is waste it on a way that helps UK plc.

With the opertunies Brexit can offer then having something that will help is stand out that can give that wow on visits to help push UK plc its the perfect time.

Like I say the old Royal Yatch earned its money over and over again and now that we're going on our own being truely independent again with out own trade and Forgain policy it can only help

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 03 Apr 2018, 21:06

Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I agree with the use of the QEs in that respect I could just see them being used too much in that way at times.

Fine. Build a couple of LHD's along the lines of the Mistral class to replace Ocean and Argus.
I don't see the RN operating a new Royal Yatch the way I see it being done is for the funding coming from other departments ( DFID, Forgain Office, Department for International Trade ? ) and it being staffed in a similar way to the RFA set up.

I can't think of any justification for DFID contributing to funding a Royal Yacht and I suspect that the FO and DIT's budgets will be stretched far enough dealing with the consequences of Brexit.
Yes we have a vast embassy set up that do good work but a Royal Yatch would offer something different something more something that others really don't. Remember we had a vast embassy set while the last Yatch was around yet it still earned its money many many times over.

If money were no object I'd have no objection to a Royal Yacht, but it is and it's likely to become more of an object as the consequences of Brexit manifest themselves. Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
The hospital set up would just be a secondary addition just like the old one.

Yes. I'm saying that actual dedicated hospital ships would be more useful and more effective in projecting soft power in a way that might make nations amenable to British commercial interests than a floating trade office would be.


So instead of spend £150m odd from other departments to help free up RN vessels from the PR jobs you surgest spending £2-£3bn on 2 LHDs to help do the jobs ?

No, I'd suggest paying the going price of around £500m per ship.
Don't get me wrong I honestly belive the RN needs 2 large LHDs but finding just isn't there.

Just as the funding isn't there for a Royal Yacht, but unlike a Royal Yacht a couple of LHD's would actually be useful.
If the MOD has to pick up the bill for desaster relief instead of DFID and the DFID being shown time and time again to be very wasteful with its huge budget ( larger than the home office now ) just to meet its silly target then least it can do is waste it on a way that helps UK plc.

I agree. As I suggested they should commission a couple of 20,000 tonne-ish hospital ships. They'd be useful and well within DFID's remit. All you're proposing is to waste money largely useless ostentation.
With the opertunies Brexit can offer then having something that will help is stand out that can give that wow on visits to help push UK plc its the perfect time.

I still think that it's unlikely that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
Like I say the old Royal Yatch earned its money over and over again

And like I say it's unlikely that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
and now that we're going on our own being truely independent again with out own trade and Forgain policy it can only help

Truly independent? No one told me we were planning on leaving the WTO, NATO etc. Once again, I'm pretty sure that 70,000 tonne aircraft carriers are far more impressive than a superyacht and far more useful.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 03 Apr 2018, 21:40

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I agree with the use of the QEs in that respect I could just see them being used too much in that way at times.

Fine. Build a couple of LHD's along the lines of the Mistral class to replace Ocean and Argus.
I don't see the RN operating a new Royal Yatch the way I see it being done is for the funding coming from other departments ( DFID, Forgain Office, Department for International Trade ? ) and it being staffed in a similar way to the RFA set up.

I can't think of any justification for DFID contributing to funding a Royal Yacht and I suspect that the FO and DIT's budgets will be stretched far enough dealing with the consequences of Brexit.
Yes we have a vast embassy set up that do good work but a Royal Yatch would offer something different something more something that others really don't. Remember we had a vast embassy set while the last Yatch was around yet it still earned its money many many times over.

If money were no object I'd have no objection to a Royal Yacht, but it is and it's likely to become more of an object as the consequences of Brexit manifest themselves. Also, I'm not sure that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
The hospital set up would just be a secondary addition just like the old one.

Yes. I'm saying that actual dedicated hospital ships would be more useful and more effective in projecting soft power in a way that might make nations amenable to British commercial interests than a floating trade office would be.


So instead of spend £150m odd from other departments to help free up RN vessels from the PR jobs you surgest spending £2-£3bn on 2 LHDs to help do the jobs ?

No, I'd suggest paying the going price of around £500m per ship.
Don't get me wrong I honestly belive the RN needs 2 large LHDs but finding just isn't there.

Just as the funding isn't there for a Royal Yacht, but unlike a Royal Yacht a couple of LHD's would actually be useful.
If the MOD has to pick up the bill for desaster relief instead of DFID and the DFID being shown time and time again to be very wasteful with its huge budget ( larger than the home office now ) just to meet its silly target then least it can do is waste it on a way that helps UK plc.

I agree. As I suggested they should commission a couple of 20,000 tonne-ish hospital ships. They'd be useful and well within DFID's remit. All you're proposing is to waste money largely useless ostentation.
With the opertunies Brexit can offer then having something that will help is stand out that can give that wow on visits to help push UK plc its the perfect time.

I still think that it's unlikely that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
Like I say the old Royal Yatch earned its money over and over again

And like I say it's unlikely that the benefits of a Royal Yacht in the modern globalised world are the same as they were in the second half of last century.
and now that we're going on our own being truely independent again with out own trade and Forgain policy it can only help

Truly independent? No one told me we were planning on leaving the WTO, NATO etc. Once again, I'm pretty sure that 70,000 tonne aircraft carriers are far more impressive than a superyacht and far more useful.


In regards to a pair of LHDs I'd see the RN going for something similar to the new Italian one, which is coming in at around £1bn so when you take in to account the more expensive build cost of the U.K. You are looking at closer to £2-£3bn for the 2.

You seem to be surgest that the money for a Royal Yatch isn't there cuz the RN hasn't got it, I always surgested that the funding come from other departments that are not under such tight budget constraints or it could even come from the Brexit fund that's been put aside.

A large pair of hospital ship funded by DFID would really help UK soft power but would do little to help UK Plc as the nation we'd want to trade with more will not need these ships assistance in any real shape.

There area we seem to disagree on really is the usefulness of a new Royal Yatch to help push the UK plc. To me free trade has not changed a great deal in the last 20 years, yes new market have opened up but the premise of woahing them has stayed them same as it was in the 1990s.

Yes truely independent. Yes we will remain members of NATO and the WTO but none of these have had any holding over us having an independent trade or Forgain policy where being in the EU has.
Being on the EU has ment that free trade deals have been made by them on our behalf ( not always to what's best for us as the other 27 needed thinking of aswell )
We also signed up to the joint EU Forgain policy, meaning we had to consult and talking in to account the over all EU policy of the whole 28 restricting us in many ways.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Caribbean » 03 Apr 2018, 22:12

Well, if we do build a Royal Yacht, it definitely needs a towed array and torpedos - clearly the RN couldn't possibly build a ship that isn't an ASW-capable "escort" :crazy:
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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby shark bait » 04 Apr 2018, 07:51

whats with all the nested quotes?
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 04 Apr 2018, 09:45

Jake1992 wrote:In regards to a pair of LHDs I'd see the RN going for something similar to the new Italian one, which is coming in at around £1bn

The RN doesn't need to. The RN has two 70,000 tonne dedicated aircraft carriers, it doesn't need LHD's that prentend to be aircraft carriers.
so when you take in to account the more expensive build cost of the U.K. You are looking at closer to £2-£3bn for the 2.

The cost of warship construction isn't significantly higher in the UK than it is in France and Italy.
You seem to be surgest that the money for a Royal Yatch isn't there cuz the RN hasn't got it,

No, I'm suggesting that no department has the money to waste on a Royal Yacht.
I always surgested that the funding come from other departments that are not under such tight budget constraints or it could even come from the Brexit fund that's been put aside.

If the UK wants to sign favourable trade deals they'd be better off hiring experienced trade negotiators.
A large pair of hospital ship funded by DFID would really help UK soft power but would do little to help UK Plc as the nation we'd want to trade with more will not need these ships assistance in any real shape.

There area we seem to disagree on really is the usefulness of a new Royal Yatch to help push the UK plc. To me free trade has not changed a great deal in the last 20 years, yes new market have opened up but the premise of woahing them has stayed them same as it was in the 1990s.

The nature of soft power has been changed somewhat by the information age and the ubiquity of instant global communications. In a globalised world, the best propaganda is not propaganda but that scarcest of diplomatic resources, credibility. The maritime resources that would best provide the UK with credibility are dedicated hospital ships providing humanitarian relief and health care, and a navy with global reach. All a Royal Yacht provides is a demonstration that you can credibly hold a party, which can be done equally well from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. With the latter also demonstrating that the UK has a credible navy with global reach.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Apr 2018, 10:34

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:In regards to a pair of LHDs I'd see the RN going for something similar to the new Italian one, which is coming in at around £1bn

The RN doesn't need to. The RN has two 70,000 tonne dedicated aircraft carriers, it doesn't need LHD's that prentend to be aircraft carriers.
so when you take in to account the more expensive build cost of the U.K. You are looking at closer to £2-£3bn for the 2.

The cost of warship construction isn't significantly higher in the UK than it is in France and Italy.
You seem to be surgest that the money for a Royal Yatch isn't there cuz the RN hasn't got it,

No, I'm suggesting that no department has the money to waste on a Royal Yacht.
I always surgested that the funding come from other departments that are not under such tight budget constraints or it could even come from the Brexit fund that's been put aside.

If the UK wants to sign favourable trade deals they'd be better off hiring experienced trade negotiators.
A large pair of hospital ship funded by DFID would really help UK soft power but would do little to help UK Plc as the nation we'd want to trade with more will not need these ships assistance in any real shape.

There area we seem to disagree on really is the usefulness of a new Royal Yatch to help push the UK plc. To me free trade has not changed a great deal in the last 20 years, yes new market have opened up but the premise of woahing them has stayed them same as it was in the 1990s.

The nature of soft power has been changed somewhat by the information age and the ubiquity of instant global communications. In a globalised world, the best propaganda is not propaganda but that scarcest of diplomatic resources, credibility. The maritime resources that would best provide the UK with credibility are dedicated hospital ships providing humanitarian relief and health care, and a navy with global reach. All a Royal Yacht provides is a demonstration that you can credibly hold a party, which can be done equally well from the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. With the latter also demonstrating that the UK has a credible navy with global reach.


Carriers and LHDs proform 2 very different roles pretending a QE could do the same role as an LHD is a falicey and a complet misunderstanding of what an LHD does. Just because it has a large flight deck and looks like a carrier does not make it one.

Build cost are typically around 25% higher in the uk than our European counter parts, with the Italian design coming in at around £1bn, £2-£3bn for 2 LHDs of a similar design built in the UK is the reasonable budget.

From what Iv read the Forgain office has had it budget increase since the Brexit vote and the department for international trade is a whole new department that has been ever expanding since its creation so there's no sign of budget constraints there.


2 dedicated hospital ship would indeed help UK soft power I never once argued that quiet the opersite I'm all for it. But the nations that this increased soft power would have the most influence over are not the same nation that lucrative trade deals would want to by signed with.
Setting up trade deals is still about the woahing and wowing of your prospective partner this is why cocktail party's are so readily held on RN vessels. I would like to see a lot of that responsability shifted to a royal yacht that would be funded from the departments that benafit from it the most ( not the mod )

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 04 Apr 2018, 11:07

Jake1992 wrote:Carriers and LHDs proform 2 very different roles pretending a QE could do the same role as an LHD is a falicey and a complet misunderstanding of what an LHD does. Just because it has a large flight deck and looks like a carrier does not make it one.

If you understand that why are you suggesting that the RN build LHD's along the lines Italy's forthcoming Trieste?
Build cost are typically around 25% higher in the uk than our European counter parts, with the Italian design coming in at around £1bn, £2-£3bn for 2 LHDs of a similar design built in the UK is the reasonable budget.

No, not really. Horizon's and Type 45 were around the same cost per ship. Type 26 and FREMM are designed to significantly different requirements so aren't really comparable.

From what Iv read the Forgain office has had it budget increase since the Brexit vote and the department for international trade is a whole new department that has been ever expanding since its creation so there's no sign of budget constraints there.

Any expansion of the FO budget is entirely due to the need to expand those departments in order to deal with the consequences of Brexit and the DIT basically entirely exists because of Brexit and is funded for that purpose. DIT's money is far better spent on experienced trade negotiators than on a glorified party yacht.
2 dedicated hospital ship would indeed help UK soft power I never once argued that quiet the opersite I'm all for it. But the nations that this increased soft power would have the most influence over are not the same nation that lucrative trade deals would want to by signed with.
Setting up trade deals is still about the woahing and wowing of your prospective partner this is why cocktail party's are so readily held on RN vessels. I would like to see a lot of that responsability shifted to a royal yacht that would be funded from the departments that benafit from it the most ( not the mod )

No, soft power credibility is absolutely linked to trade. That's one of the main reasons why soft power is so attractive. There's far more soft power woahing and wowing in dedicated hospital ships providing humanitarian relief and health care, and a navy with global reach than there is in the superficiality of a dedicated cocktail party yacht.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Apr 2018, 11:57

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:Carriers and LHDs proform 2 very different roles pretending a QE could do the same role as an LHD is a falicey and a complet misunderstanding of what an LHD does. Just because it has a large flight deck and looks like a carrier does not make it one.

If you understand that why are you suggesting that the RN build LHD's along the lines Italy's forthcoming Trieste?
Build cost are typically around 25% higher in the uk than our European counter parts, with the Italian design coming in at around £1bn, £2-£3bn for 2 LHDs of a similar design built in the UK is the reasonable budget.

No, not really. Horizon's and Type 45 were around the same cost per ship. Type 26 and FREMM are designed to significantly different requirements so aren't really comparable.

From what Iv read the Forgain office has had it budget increase since the Brexit vote and the department for international trade is a whole new department that has been ever expanding since its creation so there's no sign of budget constraints there.

Any expansion of the FO budget is entirely due to the need to expand those departments in order to deal with the consequences of Brexit and the DIT basically entirely exists because of Brexit and is funded for that purpose. DIT's money is far better spent on experienced trade negotiators than on a glorified party yacht.
2 dedicated hospital ship would indeed help UK soft power I never once argued that quiet the opersite I'm all for it. But the nations that this increased soft power would have the most influence over are not the same nation that lucrative trade deals would want to by signed with.
Setting up trade deals is still about the woahing and wowing of your prospective partner this is why cocktail party's are so readily held on RN vessels. I would like to see a lot of that responsability shifted to a royal yacht that would be funded from the departments that benafit from it the most ( not the mod )

No, soft power credibility is absolutely linked to trade. That's one of the main reasons why soft power is so attractive. There's far more soft power woahing and wowing in dedicated hospital ships providing humanitarian relief and health care, and a navy with global reach than there is in the superficiality of a dedicated cocktail party yacht.


2 LHDs would be built to replace ocean and the Albions as putting the carriers in that role is not out of choice but due to being forced to due to lack of funding. Risking a 70,000 fleet flag ship super carrier is not what any naval planner would do given the choice.
And it was not me who anitionally surgested it if you look back.

Exactly the both the FO and DIT have larger a new budgets that are not under budget contraints in the same way the MOD is, free up RN vessels from some of the PR duties by shifting that burden on the these other departments can only be a good thing.
No one can denie the benafit the last Royal Yatch brought and that it more than earner its money. Time have changed but woahing is still there and still needed that hasn't changed at all.

Yes soft power and trade are link but my point was what will the extra soft power generated by the new hospital ship generated in trade in regards to nations like the US, Aus, Canada, China ? These nation already have these capsblities in one form or another, the only nations I can see them helping increase trade links are with some African and show show East Asian but not a great deal.

I am all for a pair of hospital ships though, I just do not see them increasing trade with the likes Iv mentioned through soft power

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 04 Apr 2018, 12:17

Jake1992 wrote:2 LHDs would be built to replace ocean and the Albions as putting the carriers in that role is not out of choice but due to being forced to due to lack of funding.

Given that the RN commisaioning two LHD's would require a substantial increase in funding, I think that there'd be far more utility in keeping the Albions.
Risking a 70,000 fleet flag ship super carrier is not what any naval planner would do given the choice.

I don't see hosting the occasional cocktail party as much of a risk.
Exactly the both the FO and DIT have larger a new budgets that are not under budget contraints in the same way the MOD is, free up RN vessels from some of the PR duties by shifting that burden on the these other departments can only be a good thing.

I'd maintain that increasing the MoD budget would be a better thing. Government budgets are not set in stone.
No one can denie the benafit the last Royal Yatch brought and that it more than earner its money. Time have changed but woahing is still there and still needed that hasn't changed at all.

As I say, I disagree and your determination to simply restate your belief that "woah" is more important than credibility doesn't do anything to convince me otherwise.
Yes soft power and trade are link but my point was what will the extra soft power generated by the new hospital ship generated in trade in regards to nations like the US, Aus, Canada, China ? These nation already have these capsblities in one form or another, the only nations I can see them helping increase trade links are with some African and show show East Asian but not a great deal.

As I said, credibility. Also, I'd question what increased soft power HMY Cocktail Party would generate with the likes of the US, Australia, Canada and China that a hosting a function in a marquee on the flight deck of HMS Queen Elizabeth wouldn't?
I am all for a pair of hospital ships though, I just do not see them increasing trade with the likes Iv mentioned through soft power

Yes, you've said. You don't seem to appreciate that in the soft power is now far more about credibility than propaganda.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Apr 2018, 13:12

Pseudo wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:2 LHDs would be built to replace ocean and the Albions as putting the carriers in that role is not out of choice but due to being forced to due to lack of funding.

Given that the RN commisaioning two LHD's would require a substantial increase in funding, I think that there'd be far more utility in keeping the Albions.
Risking a 70,000 fleet flag ship super carrier is not what any naval planner would do given the choice.

I don't see hosting the occasional cocktail party as much of a risk.
Exactly the both the FO and DIT have larger a new budgets that are not under budget contraints in the same way the MOD is, free up RN vessels from some of the PR duties by shifting that burden on the these other departments can only be a good thing.

I'd maintain that increasing the MoD budget would be a better thing. Government budgets are not set in stone.
No one can denie the benafit the last Royal Yatch brought and that it more than earner its money. Time have changed but woahing is still there and still needed that hasn't changed at all.

As I say, I disagree and your determination to simply restate your belief that "woah" is more important than credibility doesn't do anything to convince me otherwise.
Yes soft power and trade are link but my point was what will the extra soft power generated by the new hospital ship generated in trade in regards to nations like the US, Aus, Canada, China ? These nation already have these capsblities in one form or another, the only nations I can see them helping increase trade links are with some African and show show East Asian but not a great deal.

As I said, credibility. Also, I'd question what increased soft power HMY Cocktail Party would generate with the likes of the US, Australia, Canada and China that a hosting a function in a marquee on the flight deck of HMS Queen Elizabeth wouldn't?
I am all for a pair of hospital ships though, I just do not see them increasing trade with the likes Iv mentioned through soft power

Yes, you've said. You don't seem to appreciate that in the soft power is now far more about credibility than propaganda.


As I said I was never the one who surgested 2 LHD my comments regarding them were in reply to another's, I complety agree there would need to be a increase in the mod budget to allow this.
With regards to QEs I see you've miss understood what I was saying, it was in relation to the LHDs use in regards to the planed use of the QEs in the LPH role not cocktail hosting.

How does a new Royal Yatch reduce our credibility in anyway ?
I'm basing my judgement on the effective return compared to ley out of the old Royal Yatch it brought in far more than it ever cost that's where I see the benafit coming from.

I am looking to free the RN from PR tasks they should only be hosting these events when it is relivent to them ( trying to sell a ship design, convince other navy's on your stance and so on ) not for over all UK Plc benifite.

As I keep repeating I have no arguement against 2 hospital ships from the DFID budget, what I don't see is them having any great effect on trade or I regard to the way we are veiwed by the nations I mentioned above. These nations already see us as a very credible soft power as is.

Budgets are not set in stone and I too would like to see an increase to the MOD budget but the minimumle amount that would be need for a Royal Yatch £150m would make no difference as it would come from existing budgets. This small amount split between 2 or 3 departments ( not the MOD ) would have very little impact on there budgets and could be a great tool for them over the years

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 04 Apr 2018, 13:42

Jake1992 wrote:As I said I was never the one who surgested 2 LHD my comments regarding them were in reply to another's, I complety agree there would need to be a increase in the mod budget to allow this.
With regards to QEs I see you've miss understood what I was saying, it was in relation to the LHDs use in regards to the planed use of the QEs in the LPH role not cocktail hosting.

How does a new Royal Yatch reduce our credibility in anyway ?
I'm basing my judgement on the effective return compared to ley out of the old Royal Yatch it brought in far more than it ever cost that's where I see the benafit coming from.

I am looking to free the RN from PR tasks they should only be hosting these events when it is relivent to them ( trying to sell a ship design, convince other navy's on your stance and so on ) not for over all UK Plc benifite.

As I keep repeating I have no arguement against 2 hospital ships from the DFID budget, what I don't see is them having any great effect on trade or I regard to the way we are veiwed by the nations I mentioned above. These nations already see us as a very credible soft power as is.

Budgets are not set in stone and I too would like to see an increase to the MOD budget but the minimumle amount that would be need for a Royal Yatch £150m would make no difference as it would come from existing budgets. This small amount split between 2 or 3 departments ( not the MOD ) would have very little impact on there budgets and could be a great tool for them over the years

At this point, I think that we're going around in circles.

Soft power is about being able to shape the preferences and policies of other nations through culture, political values, and foreign policies. In a time of straightened Royal Navy budgets, I'm not sure that the political values that would prioritise an ostentatious cocktail party boat says what you think it does about UK culture and foreign policy. Irrespective of which departments the funding came from few potential trading partners are going to think highly of a nation that sees a floating Xanadu as more important to its cultural and political values than a properly funded navy or humanitarian relief. Well, probably Donald Trump would, but that's not going to affect his nationalistic and protectionist instincts toward trade, and HMY Ostentatious Superficiality would be in service a lot longer than he'll be president.

The other thing to remember is that public perception is fickle and could easily turn against a Royal Yacht when YouTube videos inevitably emerge of business and political leaders of less developed countries being entertained while their citizens live in poverty.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 04 Apr 2018, 14:17

The main problem with the idea of building another Royal Yacht isn't the £150m to build it.

It's the problem of how do you keep it and the VIP's on board safe and secure. Given the security situation around large parts of the globe many many areas would be off limits as it would probably become a very high value target for those who wish to do this Nation harm.

RN simply don't have the available assets spare at the moment to guarantee it's safety.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby RichardIC » 04 Apr 2018, 14:57

Jake1992 wrote:With the opertunies Brexit can offer then having something that will help is stand out that can give that wow on visits to help push UK plc its the perfect time.

Like I say the old Royal Yatch earned its money over and over again and now that we're going on our own being truely independent again with out own trade and Forgain policy it can only help


I find it really odd that there is still a discussion taking place about whether a new royal yacht would be a worthwhile use of resources.

But for those who think it would the main justification seems to be the “billions of pounds of trade” the old one helped secure.

Well did it? Where’s the actual evidence underpinning this? Or is it just one of those things that’s been written in the Daily Mail so often it must be true?

I’ve no doubt whatsoever that many deals were signed onboard HMY. But was it the boat that sealed the deal or was it something else?

The reality is that many of these former Commonwealth countries supposedly chomping at the bit to once more sign lucrative deals with the post-Brexit mother country have now been bought up wholesale by the Chinese, who are sinking tens of billions into infrastructure projects and making lots of dubious individuals very wealthy into the process.

Any notion that this can be reversed by inviting the locals along for pink gin on the quarterdeck is beyond ludicrous.

And I won’t even start on how embarrassingly paternalistic the whole idea sounds.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Apr 2018, 17:47

Not sure I would reward a family with another holiday toy that shed more tears when they lost their previous yacht than when we lost Princess Diane.

Yeah I said it.

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Caribbean » 04 Apr 2018, 18:55

Ron5 wrote:Not sure I would reward a family with another holiday toy that shed more tears when they lost their previous yacht than when we lost Princess Diane.

Are you channelling Paul Burrell now, Ron :crazy:
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 04 Apr 2018, 19:31

Ron5 wrote:Not sure I would reward a family with another holiday toy that shed more tears when they lost their previous yacht than when we lost Princess Diane.

Yeah I said it.

I'm sure that the only tears prince's William and Harry shed when they heard about their mother's death were those of glee.:roll:

Oh, and if you're going to make tasteless remarks about someone's death you could at least try to get their name right. ;)

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Ron5 » 04 Apr 2018, 20:34

At least 3 grammatical errors in your post old chap so pot calling kettle ...

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Re: Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia (1954-1997) (ex RN)

Postby Pseudo » 04 Apr 2018, 20:57

Ron5 wrote:At least 3 grammatical errors in your post old chap so pot calling kettle ...

It appears that you do not understand the meaning of that idiom.


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