UK Defence Forum

So where would the 9 x Merlin ASW from the QEC go to, when it becomes necessary to Increase the F35 numbers to “Surge” (36) on the Carrier?

RichardIC wrote:

Aethulwulf wrote:Who knows, maybe Navantia will buy Harland and Wolff and the build a UK design in a UK shipyard (owned by a Spanish company).

Harland and Wolff has a workforce of 130. And you don't just recruit a trained and skilled workforce overnight. So where do you get them from?

Easyjet fly from Madrid to Belfast. So much for British jobs.

They use a complimentary labour force, about 600 of them when there busy.

Any news on the approx unit cost? Tide class were approx £140mn per unit, would these be 2-3 times more expensive?

Repulse wrote:Any news on the approx unit cost? Tide class were approx £140mn per unit, would these be 2-3 times more expensive?

If the budget was for a bn and the 3 then change to 2, plus an option for a third (when that money has been found)
... then it can't be much short of half a bn

I can't find it at the moment, but I did see a quote from a union spokesman in a local Belfast (I think) newspaper that the budget was £1.6b. Whether that is any better informed than the rest of us, I don't know

This doesn't entirely appear to correspond with the graphic released by Navantia yesterday.

Only looks to be space for twin Merlin hangers but the flight deck is massive, at 32m+ in the beam, two Merlin capable landing spots side by side should be possible.

It's not looking very special at the moment but maybe it will get better as the design matures.

Caribbean wrote:budget was £1.6b

Costing in the option (for a 3rd)?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

Caribbean wrote:budget was £1.6b

Costing in the option (for a 3rd)?

Isn't +£500 million awfully expensive for a solid stores ship? I.e. twice the cost of a T31 and 2/3rds the cost of a T26?

dmereifield wrote:

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

Caribbean wrote:budget was £1.6b

Costing in the option (for a 3rd)?

Isn't +£500 million awfully expensive for a solid stores ship? I.e. twice the cost of a T31 and 2/3rds the cost of a T26?

I was thinking this, it’s what nearly 4 times a Tide class.

It is a lot but these ships are going to be pretty complicated and require many systems such a large refrigeration areas, internal pathways to move stores form A to B the ability to move stores to and from the ship by various means and so on. There war a very good programme on one of the satellite documentary channels following a SSS form the US equivalent of the RFA, operating in support of USN units in the Gulf and Indian Ocean. The size of the vessel needed to be able to support their Carrier Groups was impressing as was the vessels capabilities. WE will probably end up with a vessel larger than the Forts and highly automated to reduce crew requirements. Compared to such a platform the Tides will appear basic and the complexity could equal a warship on a scale only matched by the Carriers and Albions.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Costing in the option (for a 3rd)?

That was my immediate thought. But, as I said, there's no guarantee that the union chap had the exact figure, he may have been including years of support work in that figure as well,, since continuity would be important from the workforces perspective

Note this from the 2018 equipment plan;

Changes in planned expenditure

The major change in Equipment Plan forecast expenditure since April 2017 is due to the move of SDSR15 Investment Funding, totalling approximately £1.9bn, from support to equipment procurement lines, primarily as the procurement funding for the Fleet Solid Support ships for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary

There is potentially some big money here. The only close example in service is the USN T-AKE class that cost $709m in 2001 for construction of first two in class. Later on in 2010 construction of T-AKE-13 and -14 cost $824m.

Based on this I expect the FSS shoild cost in around £350m - £400m a piece.

Also remember this is a two piece contract, one for the build, then one for UK specific work just lift the tide class. The Financial Times reports the former is worth £1,000m.

Nice spot. So £1.6b sounds feasible, with, as you say, a build cost in the £350-400m range and very approximately one third of the budget (say £400-500m) for support, training etc

Jane's is reporting that Navantia has offered block work to UK yards as part of their FSS bid.

Blocks could be built and outfitted and then sent to Spain.

Five UK shipyards have been consulted, but some cannot currently speak to Navantia due to their involvement with competing bids.

Poor consolation prize. Probably wouldn't happen even if Navantia won anyway

dmereifield wrote:Poor consolation prize. Probably wouldn't happen even if Navantia won anyway

maybe they have been watching Babcock say you will offer work to other yards then say they didn't meet the standards needed and keep the work

Doesn't sound like a bad deal on paper, commonality with the tide class, British engineered, British blocks, and assembled by an experienced yard.

if we are going to have British engineering and British blocks then just finish the job in the UK

whats the benefit?

shark bait wrote:Doesn't sound like a bad deal on paper, commonality with the tide class, British engineered, British blocks, and assembled by an experienced yard.

If the BMT/Navantia design is preferred over the UK consortium option, why not just build the BMT design in the UK?

Politically, sending this contract abroad in the near future seems increasingly unlikely.

Tempest414 wrote:if we are going to have British engineering and British blocks then just finish the job in the UK

Exactly

Why is it? The UK buys everything else from abroad but for some reason ship building gets a special status.

Maybe it comes down to we buy so few ships we can buy planes from other places because we build them in numbers here at home to we can buy vehicles and other things for the same reson

I don't but that.

The UK has two factories producing aircraft, and three factories pumping out naval vessels, why is a fourth needed?

Each to there own the important point is the Navy gets the ships it needs and the UK keeps the skill base it needs to build navel ships

Because eff the Spanish for stealing British fish for the past few decades plus all the Gibraltar crap.