UK Defence Forum

Everyone else seems to have a better eye sight than me... calls for buying a PC with a bigger screen,to zoom on!

BTW, isn't the 3 Phalanx'es the target config for the Bays as well? The boxes on Albion class seen to have turrets w/o a radome, so for them the Goalkeeper (would seem to be?) still around. Which makes perfect sense as they will be going closest to shore and the xtra reach would be beneficial (swarm attacks by FACs etc... though the Kornet range, the most likely thing on make-shift FACs I guess , is well in excess of Goalkeeper's.

marktigger wrote:a vehicle deck can also if big enough house a PCRS (primary casualty reception ship) facility though the legalities could get interesting.

There aren't any specific legal issues surrounding PCRS, in fact the designation PCRS was invented specifically to remain outside the scope of such legal issues.

there is always legalities as its a medical facility it has to treat PW casualties that opens a very interesting can of worms

marktigger wrote:there is always legalities as its a medical facility it has to treat PW casualties that opens a very interesting can of worms

The entire point of the PCRS designation was that it is not obliged to treat PoW casualties. If it does, then as you say there are issues.

under various international conventions we are "obliged" to treat casualties from the opposition yes allot depends on RoE but our treaty obligations are very clear both for wounded and shipwrecked mariners

marktigger wrote:under various international conventions we are "obliged" to treat casualties from the opposition yes allot depends on RoE but our treaty obligations are very clear both for wounded and shipwrecked mariners

We are obliged to treat them, yes. We are not obliged to treat them aboard a PCRS. In fact the role of a PCRS, by not operating under the protection of the Geneva Convention, is to be placed close to the battlespace in locations that would not be considered safe to treat PoWs, so PoWs often cannot be treated aboard them legally under such circumstances. (By "them", I mean Argus).

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and then the seperation of them from war like stores becomes an issue

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marktigger wrote:a vehicle deck can also if big enough house a PCRS (primary casualty reception ship) facility though the legalities could get interesting.

An interesting concept.

Think Defence has an article or two on ISO containers, one has a hospital unit http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/11/m ... ontainers/

Perhaps a similar system could be rolled on and off the ship. I'm no trauma surgeon though, is there one around here that could comment?
Same concept could be for a workshop also featured in the article

most of the major elements of a Hospital can be containerised. We already have Theatre modules there are containerised CT scanners (MRI not practical due to metal fragments) labs, ICU beds etc etc its a matter of cost. Yes a roll on roll off facility is feasable but the infrastructurre needed to support a hospital would need a load more ISO's and all the facilities to handle them.
Medical facilities operating with full protection of Red Cross have to have physical seperation from war like stores and a whole host of other legalities like marking zones of operation. But would treating Enemy PW be legal in a PCRS this is one of the grey areas as one of the obligations is to remove PW's from danger at the earliest opportunity.

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as long as the PW are receiving equal treatment to clinical priorities we are fully following international law.

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(Brief) Mention of the future MARS SSS by Admiral Zambellas at RUSI Seapower Conference 2015

Of course, there are a few more pieces of the Maritime Task Group jigsaw to put in place, including Fleet Solid Support shipping and the future of Maritime Intra Theatre Lift. We will also work with Joint Forces Command to get the enablers of command and control, and cyber and medical, exactly right.

Not much, but at least it's being mentioned. Hopefully SDSR will provide more details.

Full speech here: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... -of-navies

What's this one "the future of Maritime Intra Theatre Lift"?

Isn't there also a clear hint that PCRS will need to be on a new/ different vessel, going forward? Or is "medical" to be read as a need for more, distributed facilities to be made available?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:What's this one "the future of Maritime Intra Theatre Lift"?

Isn't there also a clear hint that PCRS will need to be on a new/ different vessel, going forward? Or is "medical" to be read as a need for more, distributed facilities to be made available?

Bringing stuff from land to the ships of the task group, and from ship to ship. In practice, COD, but possibly also including boats / landing craft for over water movement.

As for a replacement for Argus, it is a requirement which has been around at least since the SDR 1998, but as we know it has never managed to progress. A new auxiliary with the same missions as Argus would be pure gold, but i guess one possibility is emarkation of modular hospitals on the MARS FSS RoRo deck, IF MARS FSS goes ahead and IF it does have the RoRo space in the end.

Howabout from ship to land? There is such a study on the go within the RM, a pity it does not have a name to make it easy to refer to.

One of the hints dropped at the defence expo has been that the UV competition will be launched soon after the SDSR... that would be 2016 as advertised long ago. The RM competition for BV replacement will only be launched in 2017, so clearly the on-going study is going to have input to the requirements (or at least quantities, what can and should be done by other means, and how much of a role will the future BVs - Beowulf or some other - have as one of the ship to shore connectors. I would guess you can launch them with ease, but more likely get them back only after docking or sending a landing craft... an alternative connector in the bigger picture).

There has been a requirement for a "Hospital" ship going all the way back to the 1990's there are periodic comittee meeting about it but there is no likley hood of it ever being built. PCRS is a great concept but so also is enhancing the sickbay facilities on the Larger RFA's so you can support for example the Anti piracy op with an enhanced sickbay with some ward and surgical capability.
Given the Legal status putting all your medical eggs in the PCRS ship could be disasterous. And I would suggest all the amphibious vessels should have enhanced sickays and capability to generate a "Ward"

Was thinking exactly on the same lines (as marktigger) when I asked the question

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Howabout from ship to land? There is such a study on the go within the RM, a pity it does not have a name to make it easy to refer to.

One of the hints dropped at the defence expo has been that the UV competition will be launched soon after the SDSR... that would be 2016 as advertised long ago. The RM competition for BV replacement will only be launched in 2017.

I think it should be a joint programme for an amphibious, self deploying vehical that can drive straight of the back of the solid support ship and to the shore by its self, cut out the middle man.

Good to hear it specifically mentioned by the first sea lord, hopefully that means its on the cards in the review. Originally stated to be here in 2020 so its still possible.... Also the other day I found a commitment by parliament that these will defiantly be built in the UK. I wonder now the name has changed and requirements swaped if they will wiggle out of that one!

On the topic of hospital ships I think a modular roll on roll off for is a marvellous way to go, as long as it is feasible from a medical stand point.

It is also about time the UK had a proper hospital ship, mostly for flag flying and disaster relief, such as the great work in sierra leone. The ship should be the same as the solid support ship with all the bits taken off. Such a ship would not be a military vessel so it should be funded out of that forign aid budget, after all that's what it will be doing all the time.

shark bait wrote:Good to hear it specifically mentioned by the first sea lord, hopefully that means its on the cards in the review. Originally stated to be here in 2020 so its still possible.... Also the other day I found a commitment by parliament that these will defiantly be built in the UK. I wonder now the name has changed and requirements swaped if they will wiggle out of that one!

On the topic of hospital ships I think a modular roll on roll off for is a marvellous way to go, as long as it is feasible from a medical stand point.

It is also about time the UK had a proper hospital ship, mostly for flag flying and disaster relief, such as the great work in sierra leone. The ship should be the same as the solid support ship with all the bits taken off. Such a ship would not be a military vessel so it should be funded out of that forign aid budget, after all that's what it will be doing all the time.

Completely agree with you. The PCRS role could be covered by amphibious ships/solid support ships as has been mentioned above. As you say a dedicated hospital/HADR ship can only be a good thing - especially in helping to justify the Foreign Aid budget to those who are skeptical - and would be great for boosting the UK's image abroad.

This piece on Gabriele's blog (http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... abel/MR3MC) shows a possible future Argus replacement, which looks similar to the MARS SSS. Again, it can only be a good thing for as many RFA ships as possible to have some level of commonality. If this hypothetical future hospital ship has a large flight deck and good aviation facilities, it could also replace Argus in the aviation training role.

This piece (http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-cas ... ital-ship/) pretty much sums it up well, in my opinion.

We are digressing a bit, perhaps a "Future Hospital Ship" thread could be created? It's still in "fantasy fleets" territory for now however..

modular medical facilities are the way ahead most of our allies use them to some extent.
if you have a large flat deck space could portakabin type buildings be put on them?

There are already containerised theatres, ICU beds, Imaging and lab facilities. Yes you can have containerised wards.
The issues of electricity, water, heat, light and waste (of various natures) then needs to be built into the infrastructure of the vessel.

Then there is access by air and sea

marktigger wrote:modular medical facilities are the way ahead most of our allies use them to some extent.
if you have a large flat deck space could portakabin type buildings be put on them?

There is no reason why not, I think it would make most sense for ease of transport to use those containers where the sides extend out, much like american RV's

marktigger wrote: The issues of electricity, water, heat, light and waste (of various natures) then needs to be built into the infrastructure of the vessel.

They are the biggest issues, but it shouldn't be too difficult to bring power and water to the right places, that would just require running a loop around the deck, and shouldn't be too difficult as a retrofit. I would say the difficult part would be the waste which would probably require pumps.