Future Solid Support Ship

[shark bait]

The FSS not being built in the UK would have a 3 fold effect in capacity, jobs and political damage

All three of those are tenuous

1. No additional capacity is required
2. Fabricating a couple of ships will not create long term employment. They'll contract in some cheap European labour for a couple of years then gone.
3. I think this over-eggs the importance of defence in the UK, only a few unions will be upset, which aren't the conservative base anyway.

What it does bring is a short term economic boost, which is really needed right now.

[Jake1992]

The FSS not being built in the UK would have a 3 fold effect in capacity, jobs and political damage

All three of those are tenuous

1. No additional capacity is required
2. Fabricating a couple of ships will not create long term employment. They'll contract in some cheap European labour for a couple of years then gone.
3. I think this over-eggs the importance of defence in the UK, only a few unions will be upset, which aren't the conservative base anyway.

What it does bring is a short term economic boost, which is really needed right now.

You keep saying no extra capacity is need but if the 2 yards building the T classes are busy with them until the mid to late 2030s then where is the capacity to build the Bay and Albion replacements what ever they maybe ?

Currently there is that capacity but with out the FSS being built here then it will go to the wall before the time comes to start the replacements for the above.

Fabricating just 2 FSS on the own wouldn’t give long term jobs no, but when they lead onto the replacement for the other large RN vessel it does lead to long term jobs.


Simply put NO FSS in the UK lead to jobs lost now and no capacity down the line to build amphibious replacemts this leads to political fall out and cry’s about why nothing was done when the opertuniyy was there.

[shark bait]

Simply put NO FSS in the UK lead to jobs lost now and no capacity down the line to build amphibious replacemts

I don't agree with any of that. No jobs will be lost, because the jobs don't exist in the first place. There seems to be a bit of a fetish for H&W but they're just a small repair and fabrication shop, not a ship builder.

On capacity, BAE has an order book 'filled' to 2040, Babcock to 2030, and Camel Laird to 2025. Amphibious renewal is around the 2030's, so I see no imminent capacity issue.

(there is also A&P, but I don't know enough to comment)

[donald_of_tokyo]

If the HMG want to invest in the UK then as I have said time and again it can with a 1.1 billion per year over the next 30 years allowing for

15 x tier 1 escorts ( one very 2 years at 450 million per year )
8 x tier 2 escorts ( one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
16 x 95 meter multi mission sloops ( one very year at 150 million per year
3 x SSS ( one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
3 x Bay replacements (one very 2 years at 200 million per year )
2 x LHD (one built over 4 years at 300 million per year )

I feel this is enough work to keep 4 yards open like so

BAE tier 1 escorts
Babcock tier 2 escorts and Multi mission sloops
CL & H&W SSS , LSD's , LHD

Edit in the first 6 years of this plan there is 250 million a years for off board systems and between year 6 and 12 this drops to 100 million

Two points I cannot agree.

1: Optimistic build schedule/volume. It will be very very very "nice" to see it happening.

But, if you WERE the leader of these industries, will you be confident enough to, train and grow up precious skilled labors, and invest on large and efficient infrastructure at your own risk, believing there will be a good future?

Or just keep renting labors internationally (east Europe?) for part-time job and continue using current in-efficient infrastructure ?

Surely the latter. Wish is wish, please tell me (I mean, him) if it come true. Currently, it is not and it will not be in foreseeable future.


2: Even if the list comes true, there is no rationale supporting 4 yards (or 5 yards, including SSNs). I think 2 (or 3) is enough.

One SSN shipbuilder. I think this yard can also "join" part of the RFA building programs (building blocks). Normal shipbuilding labors cannot built SSNs, but part of the SSN labors can surely join building RFA vessels (or its blocks). Good training and (order) vacancy-filling (save the day).

One shipbuilder for ALL other surface vessels = tier-1 and tier-2 escorts, sloops, and all RFA and landing ships. Invest large on infrastructure and make it competitive even in international market. No need to intentionally limit the escort builders' capability to its currently limited one established on the 2 sites along river Clyde.

If possible, 3rd small-vessel yard could be independent, building Sloops. The yard also MUST be competitive, so that they can build border force cutter (be competitive enough against, say, Damen), and get international export orders. Many of the ferries for British internal use shall also be build here.


If thinking large (on item-1), keep thinking large (item-2). Distributing works to small and inefficient yards is just a total waste of money. UK government's ship orders are still small compared to, e.g. those fed into Fincantieri-Navalgroup alliance.

[Repulse]

But there is no requirement for multi-mission sloops, which seem to be an invention of this board, or LSDs or LHD, and I'm sorry I'm not sure what SSS stands for.

SSS - Solids Support Ship

You are right there is no requirement for multi-mission sloops, but there is a requirement for MCM, ASW, Littoral Security and Survey as well as Patrol & Surveillance, to which the answer could well be multi-mission sloops.

The future RM and Army requirement for amphibious operations and logistics will determine the need for LSDs and LPDs, but agree LHDs seem unlikely.

[Aethulwulf]

The report in Jane's on the Harland and Wolff tie up with Navantia and BMT for the FSS (Fleet Solid Support) bid has a few interesting nuggets...

"A new FSS competition is expected to start later this year. Although the revised scope of requirement is at this stage unclear, it is widely anticipated that the MoD will stipulate a UK-centred build."

John Wood, CEO of InfraStrata, "We're already looking at sending people out to Spain to get an insight into the shipyard process at an early stage"

"We are already working up various proposals and scenarios, including the distribution of block construction. We may look at another acquisition, or another teaming with a UK yard"

Beyond FSS, Team Resolute is eyeing other new-build and ship support opportunities within the UK Defence sector. This could include QEC dockings/refits and cluster management contracts for the RFA vessels.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the distribution of block construction. We may look at another acquisition, or another teaming with a UK yard"

... just don't do it across the Bay of Biscay in the stormy season; or be prepared to build spares in the UK, in addition to those that will be built here, anyway
- Navantia got whole hulls, rather than blocks, all the way to Oz. So a different challenge, but a challenge anyway

[Scimitar54]

Better reserve Navantia for the supply of Well Deck/Dock Blocks for the Albion and Bay replacements then. They will have been designed to be Flooded!

[SW1]

Clear looking at a establishment the business again. Wonder if building some blocks as part of the type31 is back on the cards.

[ArmChairCivvy]

That's the biz: the danes did it in the Baltics, the Finns likewise for much bigger cruise ships. The Dutch are doing it in Romania (quite a way to go, or rather, bring them back)
... we could do it, not just in Spain, but to even out capacity here (NI included )

The Dutch are even shipping some frigate blocs, with the complicated bits - like a multimast - already installed. And in Surabaya they will bash it together with the other blocs... and out comes: a frigate

[Ron5]

Eff the Spanish for their Gibraltar crap. Cheaper in Korea anyway and aren't they lined up to be post Brexit free trade partner?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Eff the Spanish

+

aren't they lined up to be post Brexit free trade partner?

I think they are, so why 'eff' them?
- food and wine is good down there, too. No one has time to notice, though, hitting the beer at the first chance?

[SW1]

Yes Spain, the consistent no 1 holiday country for people from Britain with an average of 11 million visits from the uk every year. Gib is a non issue.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Gib is a non issue.

Half of the businesses would go down without the daily commuters (not all Spanish) from across the border
- no Franco type of border closure (even the WW2 bunkers, built into sand dunes, are mainly upside-down by now)

And with Brexit, tax-free will(?) be back!

[SW1]

Gib is a non issue.

Half of the businesses would go down without the daily commuters (not all Spanish) from across the border
- no Franco type of border closure (even the WW2 bunkers, built into sand dunes, are mainly upside-down by now)

And with Brexit, tax-free will(?) be back!

It’s very much there’s more that unites us than divides us.

[Scimitar54]

They get need to get paid on delivery AT THE BLOCK ASSEMBLY YARD, not at the Block build yard!

[Ron5]

You guys are soft. Tell Spain to stop their crap with Gibraltar or suffer the consequences.

[Ron5]

Eff the Spanish

+

aren't they lined up to be post Brexit free trade partner?

I think they are, so why 'eff' them?
- food and wine is good down there, too. No one has time to notice, though, hitting the beer at the first chance?

Try reading it again, Korea is the nation poised to be the UK's next best friend. I suspect they could pick up a lot UK business from China if the UK had the balls.

[Ron5]

Gib is a non issue.

Half of the businesses would go down without the daily commuters (not all Spanish) from across the border
- no Franco type of border closure (even the WW2 bunkers, built into sand dunes, are mainly upside-down by now)

And with Brexit, tax-free will(?) be back!

It’s very much there’s more that unites us than divides us.

Kumbaya sister

[dmereifield]

You guys are soft. Tell Spain to stop their crap with Gibraltar or suffer the consequences.

What consequences could the UK impose?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Kumbaya sister

Yes, I like that version, Joan Baez (1962) best.

[Scimitar54]

Designate Gibraltarian Territorial waters as a Martlet Test Range and base 3 x FAA Wildcats at Gibraltar. That should put down a Marker.

[Ron5]

You guys are soft. Tell Spain to stop their crap with Gibraltar or suffer the consequences.

What consequences could the UK impose?

Are we not discussing one?

[dmereifield]

You guys are soft. Tell Spain to stop their crap with Gibraltar or suffer the consequences.

What consequences could the UK impose?

Are we not discussing one?

Ok, but what else. Not being sarky, just asking. What realistically can the UK do without sinking to their petty levels?

[Ron5]

You guys are soft. Tell Spain to stop their crap with Gibraltar or suffer the consequences.

What consequences could the UK impose?

Are we not discussing one?

Ok, but what else. Not being sarky, just asking. What realistically can the UK do without sinking to their petty levels?

Off the top of my head: no post-Brexit UK fishing licenses for Spanish boats.