Future Solid Support Ship

[Aethulwulf]

It is only press reports that say the budget is £1b. The same press that stated the budget for T31 to be £2b, but is currently stated to be £250m each for 5 ships.

FSS is always going to cost more than a Tide. Moving bulk fluids around just requires pipes, pumps and hoses. Moving solid stores is more complex and requires more space and equipment. The storage requirements for explosive, medical product, food are all very different and stringent (temperature, humidity, containment).

[benny14]

If the budget really is £1bn it should produce 3 excellent FSS ships with a very decent specification.

There is no doubt the original FSS concepts were a ship trying achieve a lot of things, arguably too many but it really boils down to what does RN need to build to achieve a balanced fleet within the budgets available.

Looks like the FSS ships are going to be quite multi-role. Kind of like Ocean, but instead of the aviation facilities they will have supply storage and a vehicle deck as well as several landing craft.

[Poiuytrewq]

It is only press reports that say the budget is £1b. The same press that stated the budget for T31 to be £2b, but is currently stated to be £250m each for 5 ships.

I think we've been through this before, don't believe everything you read in the papers

[shark bait]

Looks like the FSS ships are going to be quite multi-role. Kind of like Ocean, but instead of the aviation facilities they will have supply storage and a vehicle deck as well as several landing craft.

That would be a very good outcome. The carriers replace the aviation part of ocean, the support ship replaces the boat and logistic part of ocean,

[benny14]

That would be a very good outcome. The carriers replace the aviation part of ocean, the support ship replaces the boat and logistic part of ocean,

They still cant carry out the same role. FSS can take far less risk than Ocean could. I gather they will be used as extra transport. A kind of mini ro-ro.

[Poiuytrewq]

A kind of mini ro-ro.

Is that likely to have impact on the Point class or is it simply to offset the loss of Ocean and Largs Bay?

[shark bait]

Why would it be any different? Ocean was built on the cheap too

[Gabriele]

Under the original MARS there were to be 2 separate classes: One of two ships purely For fleet replenishment and another For afloat support to forces ashore. The requirement was merged in a single Class of 3 ships ahead of the sdsr2010. Losing Ocean and Largs Bay arguably has made some of that afloat support capability even more important.

[Poiuytrewq]

Under the original MARS there were to be 2 separate classes: One of two ships purely For fleet replenishment and another For afloat support to forces ashore. The requirement was merged in a single Class of 3 ships ahead of the sdsr2010. Losing Ocean and Largs Bay arguably has made some of that afloat support capability even more important.

So in that case do you think we will end up with something similar to the initial concepts? If not visually at least in terms of capability?

There appears to be a fair amount of scepticism that 3 vessels such as was illustrated in the original concepts could be built as the £1bn budget that is widely reported is not accurate?

[Repulse]

Reflecting on the point that all 3 FSSs will be required to support the 2 CSGs, then they should be tailored towards what the CSG needs.

Obviously carrier strike is one role for the CSG but also is Littoral Maneurve which is assumed to be along the lines of the RFTG, but I don’t think that is correct. I think that the assumption is that a CVF will be a direct replacement for HMS Ocean in the same operating approach is incorrect, and a OTH Air Assault role is more likely and appropriate for the CSG. Given the current assets, I think that a CVF and an Albion LPD together (but not close to shore) supporting a single RM Cdo is the most likely formation. The well dock on the Albion would be used more for logistical support as well as new OTH assault landing craft.

So therefore in my view the FSS should be focused on supporting these roles / capabilities. The LPD can provide the well-deck and the CVF can supply the Hangar space. Therefore, the FSS should be just a simplified floating Warehouse with a large flight desk to move stores via Helicopters from the CVF and Heavy Replenishment At Sea (HRAS) to both the CVF and LPD. The LPD then can use its landing craft for moving heavier supplies to shore.

Any money saved could go then go towards a RFA ARG (formed around an Aviation Support Ship- Argus, the Bays and Points) that are tasked with transporting an Armoured Infantry Brigade to a friendly / secured port.

[Timmymagic]

If four Tides cost £450m why would three FSS ships built in a similar manner cost £1bn?

Enhanced aviation facilities, cargo holds cost more than tanks, magazines for weaponry, automated cargo handling equipment,
Heavy RAS gear and increased berthing amongst other things.

Possibly - Diligence was also ice-rated - maybe a variant of the RRS, without the URN features? Or another PSV, of course - would be cheap![/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiviq

There you go. An absolute monster of a ship. And for sale as well. Could be useful as an Ice Patrol/Arctic vessel as well.

Logistics is one good reason another Bay cuts down on crew training and parts needed to support another class I do feel the RN needs to cut down on the number of types they operate

In that case an ex-oil rig support vessel is FAR better than a Bay Class. Parts and repairs are immeasurably easier to source and fit for an Oil Rig support vessel, as is the support for the diesel engines and other kit.

[Caribbean]

There you go. An absolute monster of a ship. And for sale as well. Could be useful as an Ice Patrol/Arctic vessel as well.

Yes - something like that - might even be too big! Not sure its got sufficient accommodation as-is, but presumably that could be fixed

[Poiuytrewq]

There you go. An absolute monster of a ship. And for sale as well. Could be useful as an Ice Patrol/Arctic vessel as well.

Yes - something like that - might even be too big! Not sure its got sufficient accommodation as-is, but presumably that could be fixed

How much would this vessel cost?

[Caribbean]

I think it's up for sale at US$150m, so approx. £105m at current exchange rates

[Poiuytrewq]

I think it's up for sale at US$150m, so approx. £105m at current exchange rates

Bargain, a lot of capability for the money.

[Meriv9]

Wow 450mln for the Tide class? Are they built in commercial standards like the Ocean?

Do you plan to do the same for the FSS? Because the 1bln looks tight for 3 ships.

Just for reference ,since in your requirements you look for a bigger ship, this is what we are getting for 350€ (4 for the french 2 for us).

From the forum "Forum Difesa".
https://difesa.forumfree.it/m/?t=71336416#newpost


-27k displacement
-CODLAD ≥20knts and 7k nm of autonomy.

[shark bait]

Yes they're built to commercial standards, but with a little bit of hardening that commercial ships may not have, like extra engine compartments, and a redundant propulsion system for limp home mode.

It is likely the FSS will follow a similar model, and be built off an existing civilian hull design.

[Timmymagic]

us).

Wow 450mln for the Tide class? Are they built in commercial standards like the Ocean?

Do you plan to do the same for the FSS? Because the 1bln looks tight for 3 ships.

Just for reference ,since in your requirements you look for a bigger ship, this is what we are getting for 350€ (4 for the french 2 for us).

Much as I love the Italian propensity for sticking a 76mm on everything. I think this illustrates just how good a deal the RFA got with the Tides (and with the Wave Class, which weren't bad value either). FSS will however be a substantially larger vessel, with all of the emphasis on dry cargo.

One thing I've never seen much on is why the move away from AOR's like the Fort Victoria? Was it seen as an experiment that didn't work out?

[shark bait]

What makes you think they will be substantially larger? The tides are bigger than the old forts, and nearly as big as the new forts.

Fort Victoria is an experiment that didn't work out. Originally it was going to act as a big mothership supporting a handful of small T23's sub hunting in the North Atlantic. The origional T23 had no hanger, small stores, and no missiles, so Fort Victoria had to provide all that, she even has space reserved for VLS that we're never fitted.

After the Falklands the navy decided that was a bad idea, and the experiment stalled.

Later BMT produced a paper comparing combined / single role support ships. They found combined is the right way to go if a navy only has a couple of logistics ships. However if there are already going to be 2 logistics ships at sea it's far more efficient to separate the roles.

So that's where we're at today, building big high efficiency logistics vessels that don't try and protect the fleet at the same time.

[SKB]

[inch]

what sort of tonnage ,length and capabilities do people think they will be ,ie will it have a well dock lrge hangar etc ? thankyou

[clinch]

Looks like the Government is ignoring Sir John Parker's report. What happened to the National Shipbuilding Strategy?

[donald_of_tokyo]

Looks like the Government is ignoring Sir John Parker's report. What happened to the National Shipbuilding Strategy?

Ignoring what part?

[clinch]

Looks like the Government is ignoring Sir John Parker's report. What happened to the National Shipbuilding Strategy?

Ignoring what part?

This is from his report, "Overseas build brings its own challenges including potential denial of opportunities for the UK supply chain, higher costs of overseas supervision and potential foreign exchange risks. Nor does the foreign build of ships make the direct prosperity contribution to the UK economy that an onshore build would achieve."

[donald_of_tokyo]

Yes, that is written in SJP's report. But, in the government strategy, ships other than CV and escorts are subject to international competition, it's written so.

So, no it is not compatible with SJP's independent review, but yes is consistent with government's strategy.