Future Solid Support Ship

[Scimitar54]

I’m not!!!!!

[Poiuytrewq]

Nothing really new here but good news nonetheless.

FSS competition to restart in the spring of 2021 and the winner will be a UK led bidder.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... lt-uk-led/

[Tempest414]

British lead or British fronted we will have to wait and see

[ArmChairCivvy]

or British fronted

May be that was the reasoning behind the only consortium with British yards involved did not even get (then) a look in?
- times have changed, and scraping around for any small bits of good news has intensified

[Lord Jim]

I have a feeling with the Government wanting to level up, or whatever it is called, areas of the UK besides London, and also wanting to increase manufacturing, we could end up with final assembly in the UK with a UK partner or at least fronted by a UK firm. Additionally other departments could be made to share the burden as could also happen with the LSGs given a number of their planned roles/capabilities.

[jonas]

Extract from a similar arcticle in the "Mirror". A 'significant proportion' leaves a lot to be desired. :-

Quote
“The Fleet Solid Support warships competition will be the genesis of a great UK shipbuilding industry, and allow us to develop the skills and expertise for the shipyards of tomorrow.”

The MoD said the competition to build the vessels will begin next spring and will require “a significant proportion of the build and assembly work to be carried out in the UK”.
Unquote

[BlueD954]

Nothing really new here but good news nonetheless.

FSS competition to restart in the spring of 2021 and the winner will be a UK led bidder.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... lt-uk-led/

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-s ... rocurement

A competition to build three Fleet Solid Support warships - which will launch in Spring 2021 - much delayed

International companies will be invited to work in collaboration with UK firms to feed in their skills and expertise, but the successful manufacturing team must be led by a British company - The same

[Ron5]

The full Telegraph article

British shipbuilding gets boost as new support ships to be built by UK-led teams

Defence Secretary announces competition to build £1.5 billion Fleet Solid Support vessels in 2021
By Danielle Sheridan, Political Correspondent 21 October 2020 • 6:00am

UK shipbuilding has been boosted after the Defence Secretary announced that the three new support ships for Royal Navy aircraft carriers will be made by British-led teams.

A competition to build the new £1.5 billion Fleet Solid Support vessels to support HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales as part of the Carrier Strike Group, which will undertake its first operational deployment next year, will launch in spring 2021.

While it will invite international companies to collaborate with UK firms, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) stressed that the successful manufacturing team must be led by a British company.

Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, said: "Shipbuilding has historically been a British success story, and I am determined to revitalise this amazing industry as part of this Government's commitment to build back better.

"The Fleet Solid Support warships competition will be the genesis of a great UK shipbuilding industry and allow us to develop the skills and expertise for the shipyards of tomorrow."

Lord Admiral Alan West, a former First Sea Lord, said: "I am delighted that the Treasury has at last seen sense and realised that ordering ships offshore is not the best thing either financially or in maintaining skills. This is very good news for British shipbuilding."

The announcement comes after The Telegraph revealed that British shipbuilding companies would be favoured for Government contracts under plans being considered by Boris Johnson's defence review.

The Integrated Review is understood to be considering changes to EU-derived rules that prevent the UK from prioritising domestic firms as part of a push to boost the UK shipbuilding industry at the end of the post-Brexit transition period.

Last month, both Mr Johnson and Mr Wallace hinted that the deal to build the Royal Navy supply ships would stay in the UK.

The three Fleet Solid Support vessels were due to be put to tender because they were not previously classed as warships. However, Mr Wallace told the Commons last month that the vessels were warships, raising the possibility that they could be built in Britain.

Meanwhile, the Prime Minister further hinted at the flux of domestic shipbuilding that could happen at the end of the transition deal during his speech to the virtual Conservative Party Conference earlier this month.

He said: "We aren't embarrassed to sing old songs about how Britannia rules the waves – in fact, we are even making sense of it with a concerted national ship-building strategy that will bring jobs to every part of the UK, especially in Scotland."

The MoD said the new contract would require a significant proportion of the build and assembly work to be carried out in the UK, and "hundreds of highly skilled jobs would be created as a result". It added that more jobs would be created in small and medium sized enterprises throughout the supply chain.

In the run-up to the Integrated Review Mr Wallace has stressed the need for the military and its weaponry to be fit to fight wars of "the future". Speaking at Salisbury Plain earlier this week, he pledged to put technology at the heart of defence and s aid the Armed Forces of tomorrow would have an emphasis "on new information age skills and capabilities".

In a statement the MoD added that the new warships would incorporate "next-generation technology with a purpose-built design".

The announcement comes after the UK signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Australia to continue building and delivering the next generation of Type 26 frigates. The programme consists of eight ships and will sustain 1,700 jobs in Scotland and 4,000 jobs across the wider maritime supply chain until 2035.

[Ron5]

And why exactly does the competition have to start next Spring???? Why not right now?

[Scimitar54]

No more obligations under the “Transition Period” of leaving the EU?

[Jdam]

Defence news went with a different headline

Britain leaves the door open to foreign yards in $2B supply-ship buy

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/euronav ... -ship-buy/

LONDON — British shipyards have been pledged the dominant role in the construction of three logistics ships to support the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carrier force, but the Ministry of Defence has said it expects some of the work to go to overseas yards.

“We are treating it almost like we do with Ajax, with the vehicles hulls built in Spain and where all the technical and wider fitting out is done in Wales, so it’s a broadly similar objective. You could have one part of it, not necessarily the hulls, built elsewhere but the main workshare coming to a British shipyard,” said one official

I guess a confirmation of 3 ships instead of 2 is at least good news.

[Poiuytrewq]

I guess a confirmation of 3 ships instead of 2 is at least good news.

I suspect the foreign involvement is crucial to getting the 3 hulls within the specified budget envelope.

Adding foreign expertise is a good idea but these vessels should be built in British yards, anything less and HMG will end up with another slanging match regardless of what the bean counters want.

The the BMT/Navantia/H&W consortium looks like the front runner given the noises coming from the MoD and HMG but it would be very interesting to know what Babcock are proposing. Hopefully another curve ball like the T31/Iver Huitfeildt but the priorities must be on getting 3 hulls into service asap. Aiming for in service dates of 2027 to 2029 as has been reported today seems bonkers.

It looks like we are in for another glacial build.

[Jake1992]

I guess a confirmation of 3 ships instead of 2 is at least good news.

I suspect the foreign involvement is crucial to getting the 3 hulls within the specified budget envelope.

Now I’d be very shocked and concerned if that is that case.
Don’t get me wrong I know these are not simple vessels like the Tides but if we can’t build them for £500m each in the UK then something is very wrong or the MOD are having their pants pulled down.

[Poiuytrewq]

I know these are not simple vessels like the Tides but if we can’t build them for £500m each in the UK then something is very wrong

How many yards in the UK currently have the fabrication experience or management expertise to successfully build a class of 40,000t SSS vessels? The short answer is none.

Bringing in foreign expertise is a wise move and the technology transfer and experience gained will set the UK's shipyards up for the foreseeable future, hopefully all the way to the amphib replacements in the late 2020's or 2030's.

Having said all that, these vessels should be built in British yards, ideally to a British design and hit the water asap. The foreign involvement should be managerial only. Fabricating blocks or hulls abroad would just be a cost cutting measure and the unions in the UK would go ballistic. As the FSS have now been designated as Warships it would be hard for HMG to justify extensive foreign fabrication anyway.

[Jake1992]

I know these are not simple vessels like the Tides but if we can’t build them for £500m each in the UK then something is very wrong

How many yards in the UK currently have the fabrication experience or management expertise to successfully build a class of 40,000t SSS vessels? The short answer is none.

Bringing in foreign expertise is a wise move and the technology transfer and experience gained will set the UK's shipyards up for the foreseeable future, hopefully all the way to the amphib replacements in the late 2020's or 2030's.

Having said all that, these vessels should be built in British yards, ideally to a British design and hit the water asap. The foreign involvement should be managerial only. Fabricating blocks or hulls abroad would just be a cost cutting measure and the unions in the UK would go ballistic. As the FSS have now been designated as Warships it would be hard for HMG to justify extensive foreign fabrication anyway.

My concern is in essence that later part of you comment, with the way the statement has been worded it worries me that we’ll have a foreign yard doing most of the work with a British company as just the front man ie “oh look it’s a British company doing the work just happens to be their doing it in Spain”

If they can’t be wholly built in the UK for £500m each due to expense then something is clearly wrong IMO

[Poiuytrewq]

....oh look it’s a British company doing the work just happens to be their doing it in Spain”

Could you say the same thing about BAE in Australia or Canada?

Foreign involvement doesn't necessarily mean metal bashing in Italy or Spain. Now that the FSS are designated as Warships it's going to be very difficult for HMG to pull that one.

The National Shipbuilding Strategy says nothing about building any part of a UK warship abroad so it will be interesting to see if HMG stick to it or simply refresh the NSS to allow a greater degree of latitude now that the goalposts have moved.

It's worth remembering that a yard such as H&W will need substantial investment to be able to construct vessels from scratch, Cammell Laird less so but it's still a long time since CL built anything of that size. In fact it's a generation since any yard in the UK built something as big and complex as a 40,000t SSS, QE's aside. Bringing in foreign expertise to reboot the sector would be a wise move IMO.

[Jake1992]

....oh look it’s a British company doing the work just happens to be their doing it in Spain”

Could you say the same thing about BAE in Australia or Canada?

Foreign involvement doesn't necessarily mean metal bashing in Italy or Spain. Now that the FSS are designated as Warships it's going to be very difficult for HMG to pull that one.

The National Shipbuilding Strategy says nothing about building any part of a UK warship abroad so it will be interesting to see if HMG stick to it or simply refresh the NSS to allow a greater degree of latitude now that the goalposts have moved.

It's worth remembering that a yard such as H&W will need substantial investment to be able to construct vessels from scratch, Cammell Laird less so but it's still a long time since CL built anything of that size. In fact it's a generation since any yard in the UK built something as big and complex as a 40,000t SSS, QE's aside. Bringing in foreign expertise to reboot the sector would be a wise move IMO.

I have no problems with foreign companies being involved what my concern is from the statement it doesn’t say must be built in a UK ship yard but rather a significant amount of work must be UK, with this I’m concerned that a partnership will be formed where the UK business is pretty much used as a front man to look like it’s a British build while the minority of work is done else where.

[bobp]

I see all the recent talk is about three FSS and not two, which has to be a good thing. But a lot of overseas involvement will be likely anyhow providing propulsion systems such as engines. We will have to wait and see who the partners are and where final assembly takes place.

[Ron5]

"We are treating it almost like we do with Ajax, with the vehicles hulls built in Spain and where all the technical and wider fitting out is done in Wales, so it’s a broadly similar objective"

So the winner has to promise the ships will be British to their bootstraps, promise a huge number of British jobs, say that after the first few items all construction will be in the UK, then actually deliver less than a tenth of the jobs, all hulls built in Spain, and be years late and over budget.

And at the end of the contract, the manufacturing facility will be closed down and everyone laid off because all the talk of creating exports was balony.

Great formula to repeat. Can't wait.

Or the contract be given to Bae, CL, & Babcocks and the ships assembled at the CL shipyard with blocks built on site and supplied by the other two. Design by Bae or BMT. Nah, way too sensible, much better to give the job to the lot that gives the UK grief over Gibraltar every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Scimitar54]

Only Twice on Sundays?

[ArmChairCivvy]

MARS prgrm - any constant factor thru all the to&fro's?
"Spring restart confirmed for UK Fleet Solid Support ship programme
21st October 2020 - 17:34 GMT | by Richard Thomas in London,
via Shephard"


Looks like BMT to me;
According to a joint press release issued May 26, Team Resolute combines 159 years of shipbuilding experience at one of the UK’s biggest shipyards, including the two largest dry docks in Europe, with unrivalled auxiliary design experience from UK designer BMT

Are the main parameters still the same as in the 2018 RFP?
" cargo capacity of up to 7,000 m3 (250,000 cu ft), be able to sail at a sustained speed of 18 knots"

[RichardIC]

No idea where STRN got this information from but he's generally pretty well informed:

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/fleet- ... n-britain/

The only thing worthy of note in the entire article is:

HRAS capability has been deleted

FFS, the whole point of the Future Solid Support Ship is to get HRAS to sea. That is what it's supposed to be about.

[Poiuytrewq]

HRAS capability has been deleted

Is this the first time that the deletion of HRAS has been reported? First I have heard of it. Seems strange as the QE's already have HRAS rigs fitted.

....the whole point of the Future Solid Support Ship is to get HRAS to sea. That is what it's supposed to be about.

Not any more apparently. Turns out Forts Victoria and George would have been fine all along. Just makes the decision to scrap Fort George even more of a incompetent miscalculation.

Hopefully another way to transfer F35 engines at sea has been devised.

It's also clear that the BMT/Navantia bid will need a redesign as the HRAS rigs are integral and the hanger is single Merlin only.

Fleet-Solid-Support-Ship-BMT-Design.jpg

[SKB]

A140 is also the current pennant number of PHM Atlantico, ex HMS Ocean.

[RichardIC]

Seems strange as the QE's already have HRAS rigs fitted.

Carrier strike is looking more and more screwed. We've got the carriers but they're only part of the picture.

We don't have enough aircraft to form even one proper sustainable air wing.

And now the support vessels, which are supposed to be critical to making the whole thing work, are going to have their raison d'etre removed.

The NAO report earlier this year was pretty bleak, but things are now going from bad to worse, and with no adults in the room I can't see them getting better anytime soon.