Future Solid Support Ship

[Lord Jim]

As long as the Royal Navy gets at least one new FSS by 2025 I do not care where it is built.

[ArmChairCivvy]

You mean The Wardroom! Usually somewhere under the quarterdeck.

I am sure old design principles would prevail in the end and the space allocated to strike-length missiles would be used

[RichardIC]

Why was H&W (Belfast) included in the original Team 31 bid if the facility isn't capable of building blocks?

It's called marketing.

[Tempest414]

Two things for me one HMG keep bring up the EU rule about non warship builds when telling us we are not in the EU anymore so surly these rules do not apply anymore and we can do as we please. Second all other EU countries that have a ship building base don't bother with this rule and build there own ships with little or no eye on the rules .

Also if our yards don't have the skill set to build FSS then they can buy it in like any big project would

[shark bait]

They keep bringing up the EU rule as a distraction, really all they want is cheaper than the UK. Setting up another facility is going to be costly because it's going to be short lived.

[Jake1992]

Two things for me one HMG keep bring up the EU rule about non warship builds when telling us we are not in the EU anymore so surly these rules do not apply anymore and we can do as we please. Second all other EU countries that have a ship building base don't bother with this rule and build there own ships with little or no eye on the rules .

Also if our yards don't have the skill set to build FSS then they can buy it in like any big project would

Technically we are not in the EU any more as our membership and parliament reprisensation ended on the 1st of this year. We are how ever in the so called transition period until the end of this year which means during this time our trading relationship stays the same as if we were still a member but so does the need for us to follow EU rules as if we were a member still.

As for other EU nations building supply ship at home its a two part reason, 1 is if these nations designate them as war ships as it is down to each nation to my knowledge he EU doesn’t have an over arching rule on what is or isn’t a war ship. 2 is a lot of these nation ignore EU rules when it suits them as we often see with state aid rule, to us this seem very weird as we commonally stick to rules more often than not.

I’d be very surprised if no spare yards have the skill set to build 3 SSS for £1.5bn

[shark bait]

spare yards

Spare yards? You think these empty docks have staff sitting round waiting for an order? There is no spare capacity, any capacity has to be built from the ground.

[Tempest414]

Technically we are not in the EU any more as our membership and parliament reprisensation ended on the 1st of this year. We are how ever in the so called transition period until the end of this year which means during this time our trading relationship stays the same as if we were still a member but so does the need for us to follow EU rules as if we were a member still.

The fact is when the build starts we will not be in the EU so my point is why dose HMG keep going on about it like it means anything anymore all it needs to say is it will put the contract out to International tender with priority given to UK yards meaning if UK yards can't make a good case the work goes overseas. It is then for UK yards to make a good case for a long term RFA build program

[Jake1992]

spare yards

Spare yards? You think these empty docks have staff sitting round waiting for an order? There is no spare capacity, any capacity has to be built from the ground.

You have taken that the wrong way, I meant it more as any yards that will have spare capacity in the come time ie yards that are working on projects at this moment but are soon to be finished.

Technically we are not in the EU any more as our membership and parliament reprisensation ended on the 1st of this year. We are how ever in the so called transition period until the end of this year which means during this time our trading relationship stays the same as if we were still a member but so does the need for us to follow EU rules as if we were a member still.

The fact is when the build starts we will not be in the EU so my point is why dose HMG keep going on about it like it means anything anymore all it needs to say is it will put the contract out to International tender with priority given to UK yards meaning if UK yards can't make a good case the work goes overseas. It is then for UK yards to make a good case for a long term RFA build program

It will depend on when the contract is given out to bid and not when the build starts I’m afraid, if the contract is put out before the end of the year then EU rules still have to apply and unlike some of it members the EU will be looking to jump all over us for rules breaks at the moment.
HMG could get around this though by stating they are warships but I wouldn’t be surprised if they meant they’d have to class all RFA ships as warships. This would then chuck another spanner in the works to any further RFA builds as all warship must be built in the UK and along with crewing as at the moment RFA crew does not surve on “warships”

[RichardIC]

The dilemma here is industrial not legal.

The fact is when the build starts we will not be in the EU so my point is why dose HMG keep going on about it like it means anything anymore all it needs to say is it will put the contract out to International tender with priority given to UK yards meaning if UK yards can't make a good case the work goes overseas. It is then for UK yards to make a good case for a long term RFA build program

Article 346 is being used as a convenient smokescreen by the Government. It is for them to define whether or not RFA vessels are exempt from EU contract law. Even if we were full members of the EU the UK Government could apply an exemption if it wished.

You have taken that the wrong way, I meant it more as any yards that will have spare capacity in the come time ie yards that are working on projects at this moment but are soon to be finished.

Which one then Jake? Get specific.

As Ron and Sharky have pointed out industrial capacity is limited. The Clyde, Rosyth, Barrow, Cammell are busy. Harland and Wolff Belfast and Appledore don't have a workforce.

Any capacity will need to be created and that will be expensive.

[Poiuytrewq]

Harland and Wolff Belfast and Appledore don't have a workforce.

Maybe you had better pop across and let the chaps in Harland & Wolff know. Have you ever toured the H&W facility?

It's pretty impressive albeit much more modest than what it was 30 or 40 years ago.

As for Appledore.....
https://www.pesmedia.com/appledore-ship ... -08092020/

[ArmChairCivvy]

The last announcement from HW I saw was about setting up a new metal working facility.

There was nothing about its scale, though. All such things would come in handy for the new owner if and when off-shore picks up again.
- meanwhile, a juicy gvmnt project (a slice of it) would pay for the investments

Similarly, Appledore plans to spread the scope of its metal working (working the overheads hard, between ship projects):
" It will also be able to accommodate other projects like steel fabrication for industry and construction."

[RichardIC]

Maybe you had better pop across and let the chaps in Harland & Wolff know. Have you ever toured the H&W facility?

Take a look at Infrastrata's latest annual report which gives an exact figure for the number of employees at Harland and Wolff, Belfast (as of January 2020).

As for Appledore the key word in the article is "potential". As discussed elsewhere they need contracts in order to start hiring.

[SD67]

spare yards

Spare yards? You think these empty docks have staff sitting round waiting for an order? There is no spare capacity, any capacity has to be built from the ground.

You have taken that the wrong way, I meant it more as any yards that will have spare capacity in the come time ie yards that are working on projects at this moment but are soon to be finished.

Technically we are not in the EU any more as our membership and parliament reprisensation ended on the 1st of this year. We are how ever in the so called transition period until the end of this year which means during this time our trading relationship stays the same as if we were still a member but so does the need for us to follow EU rules as if we were a member still.

The fact is when the build starts we will not be in the EU so my point is why dose HMG keep going on about it like it means anything anymore all it needs to say is it will put the contract out to International tender with priority given to UK yards meaning if UK yards can't make a good case the work goes overseas. It is then for UK yards to make a good case for a long term RFA build program

It will depend on when the contract is given out to bid and not when the build starts I’m afraid, if the contract is put out before the end of the year then EU rules still have to apply and unlike some of it members the EU will be looking to jump all over us for rules breaks at the moment.
HMG could get around this though by stating they are warships but I wouldn’t be surprised if they meant they’d have to class all RFA ships as warships. This would then chuck another spanner in the works to any further RFA builds as all warship must be built in the UK and along with crewing as at the moment RFA crew does not surve on “warships”

FGS it has nothing to do with EU rules. EU rules (s346 TFEU) give a national security exemption to competition law. They do not define what constitutes “national security”. That’s up to the member states. Several EU states exempt support ships from competition on this basis.

If there’s foreign build of FSS it is because our govt don’t believe this type of ship raises national security issues.

FWIW personally I think there should be competition on everything, you’re not forced to accept the lowest bid.

[Tempest414]

FWIW personally I think there should be competition on everything, you’re not forced to accept the lowest bid.

This is my mind set I think all projects should be International tender with priority given to British companies meaning it theirs to lose

[Lord Jim]

With a realistic overall programme budget from the start!

[Poiuytrewq]

With a realistic overall programme budget from the start!

I think we can all agree that if the £1.5bn figure is accurate the budget for the FSS programme is now realistic. Thankfully.

[Tempest414]

With a realistic overall programme budget from the start!

I would say that a RFI should be put together and issued with no budget it should be for companies to come up with package and program cost that is not to say the MOD should not have realistic figure in mind when setting out the RFI. Also when UK companies are laying out there offers they should show how investment in one project can show returns in future programs

[ArmChairCivvy]

With a realistic overall programme budget from the start!

I would say that a RFI should be put together and issued with no budget it should be for companies to come up with package and program cost that is not to say the MOD should not have realistic figure in mind when setting out the RFI. Also when UK companies are laying out there offers they should show how investment in one project can show returns in future programs

Agree, and taking the thought further:
At what price an acceptable bid comes in should then determine whether we buy 3 outright, or 2 plus an option on the third.Options do have dates by which - the latest -they would have to be exercised (to be valid).

[The Armchair Soldier]

"the UK is set for a fantastic time when it comes to shipbuilding"

Boris Johnson in Parliament today.

Do we think this is a hint to FSS or is it just his typical over exaggeration of things?

[bobp]

Do we think this is a hint to FSS or is it just his typical over exaggeration of things?

Until we see orders on the table i am afraid over exaggeration of things.

[dmereifield]

Do we think this is a hint to FSS or is it just his typical over exaggeration of things?

Until we see orders on the table i am afraid over exaggeration of things.

True enough, but could it also relate to LSS or disaster a relief ship/hospital ship (from the aid, I mean, FCO budget?)

[bobp]

True enough, but could it also relate to LSS or disaster a relief ship/hospital ship (from the aid, I mean, FCO budget?)

Possibly but until we see orders on the table.....just pie in the sky.

[Lord Jim]

Or they could be placing the order for at least some of the remaining T-26 and one or two FSS. Mind you trying to be optimistic in these times is rather painful.

[donald_of_tokyo]

But, but, I'm afraid he is just saying ... "Having 8 frigates in order, built in 2 independent yards, is "glorious", in some sense."