Current & Future Overseas Patrol - General Discussion

[donald_of_tokyo]

Donald, I'm glad Japan is holding its own.

But you're still doubling down and trying to pretend that a growing global economic and environmental crisis can be solved simply and easily.

Thanks RichardIC-san. If you think so, it's my fault.

I never think sending an OPV solves everything. Actually, my point is, there is NO NEED to solve EVERYTHING, it is simply impossible, as you said. But, it does not mean doing nothing is better.

Doing something can "reduce" the problem, "help" control the issue "to some extent", and then hopefully invoke support world-wide.

Illegal anything will never disappear, as war will never disappear. The only important thing is how to reduce it.

[Caribbean]

You can monitor until you're blue in the face. Without enforcement it's worthless. And there won't be any.

Without the Marine Protection Zone - there's nothing to enforce and no right to protect it. This is the first step at least, giving a legal basis for preventing exploitation by others.

BIOT was the first Blue Belt MPZ and currently has its own Fishery Protection vessel. We've also trialling UAVs for surveillance there (along with other trials in Uganda, Canada and Belize). When needed, the three RRS' are also available (and have been active in the initial surveying process) along with the four RN Survey vessels (usually one or two in the Atlantic/ Antarctic), the RB2/ Bay in the Caribbean (multiple EEZs, as no MPZ) and an RB2 in the Falklands

In addition there are other local vessels with local crews. Apart from BIOT, Tristan has it's own recently refurbished blue water fishery protection vessel and is getting a new vessel for inshore monitoring and patrol. The Falklands have two civilian FPVs. A number of the Caribbean BOTs are being assisted in setting up their own Coast Guard units (or enhancing their existing Marine Police Units) and acquiring additional helicopters (the focus may be more on smuggling in the Caribbean, but there are also Fishery protection issues. Cayman, for instance regularly arrest foreign fishermen in territorial waters).

A lot of effort is going into training local conservation and enforcement teams, creation of appropriate local Laws (to allow subsequent prosecution of detained vessels and crews) and the construction of local facilities for monitoring and evidence gathering. There's a lot being done that doesn't involve (or need) the RN. Just because you are ignorant of it doesn't mean its not happening.

As for the Chinese remote fishing fleets, so far they've largely been sticking to international waters (off the Galapagos in particular), politically based targets (Taiwan and North Korea) or picking on nations that they know have limited or no capacity to protect their own EEZ (mainly around the SCS, but spreading into the Indian Ocean as well). Creating the Blue Belt MPZs gives the various BoTs involved a right to call on the UK Government for help (and an obligation on the UK Government to enforce its own laws, since the Blue Belt initiative is part of UK law) and clearly defines the areas that foreign vessels should steer clear of, or expect a response. Satellite imaging and local monitoring can keep track on their general areas of activity, allowing RN assets to be dispatched to assist if needed, no need to have assets permanently stationed there.

[Scimitar54]

All very well! However well intentioned it may be, if you are not able to convince potential offenders that you do have the means (and also the will) to enforce it, then it is little more than Hot Air. A contemporary case of “The King’s New Clothes”.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Apart from BIOT, Tristan has it's own recently refurbished blue water fishery protection vessel and is getting a new vessel for inshore monitoring and patrol.

That's quite a bit of employment for 245 Tristan da Cunha Islanders that share 9 surnames between them.

Creating the Blue Belt MPZs gives the various BoTs involved a right to call on the UK Government for help (and an obligation on the UK Government to enforce its own laws, since the Blue Belt initiative is part of UK law) and clearly defines the areas that foreign vessels should steer clear of

where's the UN in all of this?
- they could set up an agency and discontinue five most redundant others

[Caribbean]

That's quite a bit of employment for 245 Tristan da Cunha Islanders that share 9 surnames between them.

I know - I suppose that it does seem improbable to the average Brit that a small community that is almost completely dependent on the sea might actually be prepared to get off their sofa and look after their own interests (and get a dependable income for doing so)

where's the UN in all of this?

A good question - the Galapagos marine conservation area has been declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site, but I suspect the UN doesn't want to recognise the Blue Belt zones ( despite the fact that they are identical in intent to the the Galapagos Marine Protection Zone), because it has political implications for Mauritius'claim to Diego Garcia.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I suspect the UN doesn't want to recognise the Blue Belt zones ( despite the fact that they are identical in intent to the the Galapagos Marine Protection Zone), because it has political implications for Mauritius'claim to Diego Garcia.

I agree with all the POVs that you responded with, BUT
did us being in the EU somehow stop us defending our national interest and sovereign rights (and should we exit the UN because they don't always 100% do as we would like them to?)?

[BlueD954]

https://committees.parliament.uk/public ... 2/default/

Page 14

"The Department [MOD] told us [Commons PAC] that it has made a case to HM Treasury for increasing the size of the surface fleet, but no outcome was yet forthcoming"

[RichardIC]

There's a lot being done that doesn't involve (or need) the RN. Just because you are ignorant of it doesn't mean its not happening.

Thanks. My wife calls this "mansplaining".

Creating the Blue Belt MPZs gives the various BoTs involved a right to call on the UK Government for help (and an obligation on the UK Government to enforce its own laws, since the Blue Belt initiative is part of UK law) and clearly defines the areas that foreign vessels should steer clear of, or expect a response.

It's the last bit. The response. What does that amount to?

[ArmChairCivvy]

a small community that is almost completely dependent on the sea

The zone is described as 'no-take'.
- is there an exception for the islanders, on a small scale?
- they have, prior to this current initiative, been praised for the sustainability of the lobster 'industry'

[Tempest414]

It's the last bit. The response. What does that amount to?

We have heard you poo poo others but what would you do Doc to slow up the wave

[RichardIC]

We have heard you poo poo others but what would you do Doc to slow up the wave

Oh, so that's what the last reference was about. Low, really low.

[jedibeeftrix]

I suspect the UN doesn't want to recognise the Blue Belt zones ( despite the fact that they are identical in intent to the the Galapagos Marine Protection Zone), because it has political implications for Mauritius'claim to Diego Garcia.

I agree with all the POVs that you responded with, BUT
did us being in the EU somehow stop us defending our national interest and sovereign rights (and should we exit the UN because they don't always 100% do as we would like them to?)?

I think we can all recognise the difference between:
a) an intergovernmental treaty organisation facilitating cooperation between nation states, and;
b) a suprnational organisation seeking growing competence to govern nation states in domestic policy areas

[Tempest414]

We have heard you poo poo others but what would you do Doc to slow up the wave

Oh, so that's what the last reference was about. Low, really low.

No you have put two and two together and come up 6

[ArmChairCivvy]

an intergovernmental treaty organisation facilitating cooperation between nation states

... and sitting by when it is not forthcoming?

The main point: The UN (long ago) tried peace enforcement, and failed.
- with the hoovering of the oceans, would it be worthwhile to try again, or at least inter-governmentally agree sanctions... I don't think fines would be collectable, so a need to be more creative, but naming and shaming in some form could work. This shouldn't be a 'veto in the UNSC' question - and were it to become one, the result would be there for everyone to see

[RichardIC]

No you have put two and two together and come up 6

Don't think so. If you want to carry this on use PMs. No reason why anyone else should need to suffer this tripe.

[RichardIC]

with the hoovering of the oceans, would it be worthwhile to try again, or at least inter-governmentally agree sanctions

Back on topic. Yeah, sanctions.

[Tempest414]

No you have put two and two together and come up 6

Don't think so. If you want to carry this on use PMs. No reason why anyone else should need to suffer this tripe.

Dry your eyes sweetheart

So are you saying you would as the UK would uses sanction against China to stop them hovering up fish stocks in BOT 's

[RichardIC]

with the hoovering of the oceans, would it be worthwhile to try again, or at least inter-governmentally agree sanctions...

Just re-read this and stop embarrassing yourself.

[ArmChairCivvy]

(Hawker )Typhoon and Tempest: A Formidable Pair

A book title, by Philip Birtles, does not record any dogfights between them

[RichardIC]

(Hawker )Typhoon and Tempest: A Formidable Pair

A book title, by Philip Birtles, does not record any dogfights between them

Maybe I should call it a day, 'cos in that context the Tempest has all the advantages.

[ArmChairCivvy]

[Tempest414]

Maybe I should call it a day, 'cos in that context the Tempest has all the advantages.

maybe maybe not below 10 000 ft it the Tempest lets the speed drop off the Typhoon can out turn it you are still in the game

[RichardIC]

TBH honest I'd much rather discuss WW2 aircraft than bicker about future overseas patrol.

[Caribbean]

mansplaining

You really should stop doing that, you know - she'll get really pissed off if you keep doing it

The response. What does that amount to?

I think it's pretty clear. It could be any one of the assets already mentioned, from civilian FPVs (which are quite capable of stopping fishing boats and arresting their crews - they have done so before), through government-owned vessels (e.g. RRS's etc), RFA's, OPVs all the way up to dispatching a frigate (if the Chinese maritime militia are stupid enough to resort to armed force against UK citizens/ overseas territories citizens) - which would presumably fall within the purview of the FRE. Or more if the situation warranted it. Most of the Blue Zones are in the Atlantic or the British Antarctic region (only BIOT and Pitcairn aren't) - not particularly difficult to get to quickly.

The point is that there is no need to permanently position naval assets around every island on the off-chance that someone will decide to go fishing in a gunboat. As donald-san said, confiscation of fishing gear and boats, along with fines (they may not pay the fine, but the owners could still have other vessels detained and sold to pay off the outstanding fine, deterring them from re-entering a protected zone) and imprisonment of Captains (and even crews in some circumstances) all act as a deterrent to repeat offending.

did us being in the EU somehow stop us defending our national interest and sovereign rights (and should we exit the UN because they don't always 100% do as we would like them to?)

I admire your determination to shoehorn Brexit into every discussion. Short answer - clearly not for the MPZ's, as they are not part of the Common Fisheries area, so no pooling of sovereign rights and no overruling of UK/ BOT Conservation bodies (CFP Conservation and management is reserved to the EU Commission). All the UK can do with regard to CFP fish stocks, is make representations regarding sustainable stocks and catch levels to the EU Commission, which the EU Commission has frequently ignored since the inception of the CFP, leading to overfishing - is that the inability to defend our rights that you were referring to?).

As for the UN - why would we leave it, when we can simply ignore the resolution (not something that we would be unique in doing)? As you note above, we could even have vetoed it, being on the Security Council and all that, though it would be poor form to do so. I know you are trying to draw a parallel with the EU, but it doesn't quite work.

TBH honest I'd much rather discuss WW2 aircraft than bicker about future overseas patrol.

Agreed that it would be an interesting subject. Maybe not on the "Fiture Overseas Patrol" thread, though

[ArmChairCivvy]

only BIOT and Pitcairn are[n't) - not] particularly difficult to get to quickly.

Well, you have prescribed the answer for Pitcairn and as USAF does rotate their bombers thru Guam/ Oz/ DG, an occasional overflight in this manner should scare 'undesirables' off for good: https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict ... Framed.jpg

I admire your determination to shoehorn Brexit into every discussion.

You are right about the determination, but in this instance it was about 'sovereignty' - which is called to help in situations when the gist is not about sovereignty... or the whole concept has been misunderstood.

As for the UN - why would we leave it, when we can simply ignore the resolution (not something that we would be unique in doing)?

We just did it, with DG... which appears in this post