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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Bring Deeps
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Bring Deeps » 02 Dec 2018, 16:04

I wonder to what extent this is a RAF vanity project that doesn't reflect the current geo-political realities.

When would the RAF use their F35As? Deep strike against the Red Army as it advances across Poland, liberating Northern Ireland from the EU or flying with the BBMF at an airshow? One of these options is far more likely than the other two.

Most people would like a Ferrari but have to settle for a Ford for good reason, when cash is in short supply you need to make the most of the funds available. At the end of the day both cars will get you from A to B. The same is true of the F35A and F35B when you consider the likely opposition.

The F35B gives the UK options and flexibility that any number of F35As can't give us. Yes, an aircraft carrier is vulnerable but mostly to the people we won't be going to war against this side of Armageddon.

It is not quite the right analogy but all the same it is worth pointing out that history might have been very different if Hitler had built more Uboats instead of being seduced by the idea of having a grand surface fleet.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 02 Dec 2018, 17:21

Tempest414 wrote:Lots of talk about what type of F-35 and what for. If we look at the figures for both types it looks like B comes in circa $115 million and A post 2020 circa $80 million with this in mind if we went for 138 Bs it would cost circa 15.9 billion however if we went for 100 B's and 50 A's it would cost 15.5 billion this could be split something like this

FAA 50 jets split into squadrons of 10 jets

800 NAS HMS QE
801 NAS HMS QE
809 NAS HMS POW
892 NAS HMS POW
899 NAS F-35B OCU

RAF 50 F-35B jets split into 3 squadrons of 12 jets

9 Sqn front line
15 Sqn front line
617 Sqn front line

RAF 50 F-35A jets split into 3 Squadrons of 12 jets

19 Sqn front line
20 Sqn F-35 OCU
74 Sqn front line


Don't forget there are going to be a number of airframes in storage for fleet management purposes and if the F-35 fleet is split so that only 50 are bought you are in all probability going to end up with only two front line squadrons and an OCU at that is it.

Whilst there are members of the "Junior" service who see the "A" as a way of ensuring they receive the full amount of F-35s we have committed to and if the conspiracy theories are believed, ensure they are toys solely for them to play with, the CV programme it too political for them to do it under the radar as they sort of did with the Joint Harrier Force. What annoys me about all this is that the RAF has another platform that is still growing in capability and is world class by any standard, namely the Typhoon. They should concentrate their energies on ensuring this platform reaches its true full potential.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 02 Dec 2018, 22:03

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Little J wrote:who else has split bought?

Turkey would like some, but will, I bet, get none... of either

The Pentagon has submitted a for & against paper to the Congress, for decision.
SW1 wrote:Italian split is 60 f35 A 30 f35 B

Magical mathematics, A+B
2 x 48 + 48 = 144, and as the last ones will come in abt 20 yrs from now, with an attrition reserve that is ... 138 :)


Yes those numbers would be about right if your looking a at a sole f35 fastjet fleet. If the combat air strategy is to be believed and it’s funding as has been directed in the July announcement it isn’t the strategic direction of government however. What comes after the 48 f35 on order will define not just the shape of the fastjet fleet but the very future of uk miltary Aerospace design, do we produce a new design or do we shut it down there is not a budget to do both.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Scimitar54 » 03 Dec 2018, 03:52

Anything less than 90 F35B's will be totally inadequate. Tempest will not be taken out of the remaining 48 "F35s"
For one thing, it would not be ready within an adequate timeframe and may not ever get to production. Also, do not forget about the Typhoons.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 03 Dec 2018, 08:30

Scimitar54 wrote:Also, do not forget about the Typhoons.

+ the "fork in the road":
SW1 wrote: do we produce a new design or do we shut it down there is not a budget to do both.

... or do something in between. Let me elaborate (and please bear with the "eine kleine Einleitung" about how the Gvmnt strategy used the terms being bandied around):

The Combat Air Strategy uses the term ‘Team Tempest’ – and the companies involved have given some indications of the technologies and techniques they are looking at.

The other term in the Strategy is ‘Pyramid’: the project to develop open mission systems architecture, ie. act, if there is a go-ahead after the initial two-year funding, in the same way as Apple has done in building and upgrading iPhone.

About the team:

BAE Systems: at BAE's exhibiting stand Replica had been hauled out, with a Tiffie landing gear (front only?) bolted on... as it is normally hung at various angles, for its original purpose

Rolls-Royce: the full potential of the Typhoon's engine is still to be developed

MBDA : this is where it gets interesting. The Franco-German fighter project contracts, building on the 'must have' rqrments phase will be let in early 2019... and while Dassault will do the airframe (don't be surprised if it will come out as a cross between Rafale and Replica) part, Germany will do the ' systems' part. Can we see an overlap between the two programmes forming already now?

Leonardo: will work on sensors, electronics, and avionics.
- Coming back to Typhoons, a well-written RUSI paper on it is titles "The Best is Yet to Come". Leonardo says it will “mature the critical technologies to deliver next generation sensing and communications alongside the advanced open-system architectures that will deliver a step-change in how the sensors are employed within an operational system.”

- Typhoon Tr3B (for Germany?) might see baby steps of this Step Change, as they are (timing wise) on the most critical path. And also want to gear up, to avoid playing only a bit part when the actual action will be scaled up in the 30's.

- who says that there won't be a Typhoon Tr4 for the RAF?
... call it Tempest, for a propaganda coup?

In this scenario the F-35 buy would 'stall' somewhere between 48 and low 70s... which quantity would not allow for two versions (to be efficiently supported and squadrons rotated in tasking).

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 03 Dec 2018, 09:32

comparing the f35b to the a , the b is chunkier and less manoeuvrable taking an extra 18 seconds over the a in going from 0.8-1.2 mach as its not able to carry the 2000 pound bunker buster like the a would not be able to do stealthy raids against deep bunkers having to carry heavy loads on the wings , as an aircraft designed and purchased for stealth raids why would you not want that ability?

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 03 Dec 2018, 10:18

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Scimitar54 wrote:Also, do not forget about the Typhoons.

+ the "fork in the road":
SW1 wrote: do we produce a new design or do we shut it down there is not a budget to do both.

... or do something in between. Let me elaborate (and please bear with the "eine kleine Einleitung" about how the Gvmnt strategy used the terms being bandied around):

The Combat Air Strategy uses the term ‘Team Tempest’ – and the companies involved have given some indications of the technologies and techniques they are looking at.

The other term in the Strategy is ‘Pyramid’: the project to develop open mission systems architecture, ie. act, if there is a go-ahead after the initial two-year funding, in the same way as Apple has done in building and upgrading iPhone.

About the team:

BAE Systems: at BAE's exhibiting stand Replica had been hauled out, with a Tiffie landing gear (front only?) bolted on... as it is normally hung at various angles, for its original purpose

Rolls-Royce: the full potential of the Typhoon's engine is still to be developed

MBDA : this is where it gets interesting. The Franco-German fighter project contracts, building on the 'must have' rqrments phase will be let in early 2019... and while Dassault will do the airframe (don't be surprised if it will come out as a cross between Rafale and Replica) part, Germany will do the ' systems' part. Can we see an overlap between the two programmes forming already now?

Leonardo: will work on sensors, electronics, and avionics.
- Coming back to Typhoons, a well-written RUSI paper on it is titles "The Best is Yet to Come". Leonardo says it will “mature the critical technologies to deliver next generation sensing and communications alongside the advanced open-system architectures that will deliver a step-change in how the sensors are employed within an operational system.”

- Typhoon Tr3B (for Germany?) might see baby steps of this Step Change, as they are (timing wise) on the most critical path. And also want to gear up, to avoid playing only a bit part when the actual action will be scaled up in the 30's.

- who says that there won't be a Typhoon Tr4 for the RAF?
... call it Tempest, for a propaganda coup?

In this scenario the F-35 buy would 'stall' somewhere between 48 and low 70s... which quantity would not allow for two versions (to be efficiently supported and squadrons rotated in tasking).


That all makes a lot of sense and I agree with 99%. I do think however we will purchase more than the maximum of 70 F-35s over the life of the programme but will probably never have more then 70 in service or storage, with early platforms stripped and trashed later on. Eventually the ratio of F-35 to Typhoon will switch 190 degrees and we will have one station with Typhoon and two with F-35. It will not result in large expenditure on infrastructure and all deep maintenance will be done at Marham. As for Tempest or Team Tempest, the Idea of this producing sub systems for the Franco/German project is interesting and would spread the financial load across more nations without trampling on too many toes. These could also migrate to the Typhoon and the UK working with Germany to optimise this platform could lead to further work as other users come aboard. I am of the opinion that Tempest will never result in a new manned platform but rather develop a blue print for something that could appear in the 2040s. For a true next generation platform for the RAF, because France and Germany are out of step, the UK is going to have to look to non-traditional partners to joint fund a programme or turn once again to the USA and become a junior partner in whatever they are working on.

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 03 Dec 2018, 10:18

Sorry I was going way way off topic here feel free to move the above post.

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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 03 Dec 2018, 12:02

I think it's about time we redirect this discussion to the F-35 thread. Let's keep it strictly QEC from this point onward.

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 04 Dec 2018, 13:17

Some more Westlant 18 photos sourced from Navy Lookout:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
(Navy Lookout)

SDL
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SDL » 04 Dec 2018, 13:19

she is quite the looker

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Dec 2018, 15:00

She certainly is but I wish she had here own set of teeth rather than relying on those of her airwing and escorts to defend her honour if she comes across a foreign Gentleman with dubious intensions.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 04 Dec 2018, 17:37

Pig ugly but great photos. Thanks for sharing.

Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Dec 2018, 17:57

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though some are blind to it.

bobp
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby bobp » 04 Dec 2018, 18:33

Nice photos seems like the paint is peeling off the bow, looking at the picture of the F35 taking off the ski jump.

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 04 Dec 2018, 20:20

Yes, that cream colour on the bow is the undercoat layer on bow block LB01L

Image

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 05 Dec 2018, 15:19


Image

Little J
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Little J » 05 Dec 2018, 16:44

To go with the above...

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 05 Dec 2018, 20:58


Lord Jim
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Dec 2018, 22:46

I just hope the contract for the weapons handling systems wasn't given to the company that designed Terminal Fives baggage system. :D

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 05 Dec 2018, 22:59

Imagine if the QE weapons handling system was like Terminal 5's Pods?! :mrgreen:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby PhillyJ » 06 Dec 2018, 12:01

Whilst watching the Twitter video from HMSQE I thought at first they were trying to hit the container ship with those bombs at the end!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby The Armchair Soldier » 06 Dec 2018, 12:19

A video featuring the highly mechanised weapon handling system and a loaded F-35 takeoff.


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Phil R
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Phil R » 06 Dec 2018, 13:12

Effects of jet blast on personnel @ 1:07

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby RAF>FAN » 06 Dec 2018, 15:47

The Armchair Soldier wrote:A video featuring the highly mechanised weapon handling system and a loaded F-35 takeoff.



Highly mechanised men pushing things about on trolleys :roll:


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