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Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Repulse
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Repulse » 22 Feb 2021, 21:29

”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 23 Feb 2021, 11:46

Tempest414 wrote:
NickC wrote:shark bait:
If you take your benchmark for a frigate as the GP T23, I wouldn't classify T31 as a frigate, maybe a OPV?

Surface Warfare
Anti-ship missiles , T23 8x Harpoon vs T31 zero
Main Gun T23 4.5" 46lb shell ~12 nm vs T31 Mk57 2.2" 6lb shell ~6 nm
Wildcat T23 LMM & Sea Venom vs T31 LMM & Sea Venom

AAW
Missiles T23 32x Sea Ceptors vs T31 12x Sea Ceptors
Guns T23 2x DS30B vs T31 2x Bofors 40mm

ASW
Hull sonar T23 S2150 vs T31 none
LWT T23 2x2 Sting Ray vs T31 none

Not sure details 100% correct, but think shows why i wouldn't classify T31 as a frigate due to its lack of firepower


Type 31 will never be as good as T-23 at ASW it was not designed to be however in the GP field T-31 could out strip T-23 being able to carry more CAMM up to 16 NSM even Mk-41 VLS it is all down to money the simple fact is T-31 is a Frigate with a corvette weapons fit. Type 23 is maxed out as far as weapons type 31 could have the same as the IH class i.e 32 MK-41's allowing for 128 CAMM or any mix of weapons


Don't disagree but i think the T31 as specified, contracted for and being built for the RN is not a frigate, its a long range OPV for gin and tonic parties / presence missions, whereas the old T23GP is a frigate. Not saying the that the T31 platform is not capable of being fitted out as a frigate with Mk41 VLS etc, etc. you only have to look at the parent Iver Huitfeldt class ships which are very capable frigates.

So totally unsuited for the use in the scenario shark bait envisaged above, fingers crossed the future T32 will be different and suitably kitted out.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 23 Feb 2021, 12:09

Didn't the 1SL just state, in his speech, that the T31s will be replacing the T23 in the Gulf? I think the RN expects them to fulfil a frigates duties, even if they are less well armed that the T23 GP
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Lord Jim » 23 Feb 2021, 12:13

It maybe less well armed but is probably better for the role the T-23 in the Gulf is currently carrying out. IF things turns hot though, it would need back up quickly.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 23 Feb 2021, 19:42

Bear in mind we still don't know exactly what GFE will be fitted to the T31s (do we?)... with all the talk of retiring up to 4 T23s early, there will be plenty of equipment available for the T31s by the time they come online (32xSea Ceptor farms, 30mm guns, ECM, even the hull sonars (although they're a bit long in the tooth), etc.). Also, depending on the outcome of the I-SSM program, some heavy ASMs may find their way to the T31s as the T26s start coming into service and the ASW T23s get retired. All in all, I'd hold my judgement on the ultimate equipment fit of the T31s; by the early 30s they could end up very well equipped GP/Patrol frigates.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 23 Feb 2021, 21:30

JohnM wrote:retiring up to 4 T23s early, there will be plenty of equipment available for the T31s by the time they come online (32xSea Ceptor farms, 30mm guns, ECM,


Heh-he, their hull sonars were being replaced anyway.
And this is a rerun pf the story how the T26s could be so 'affordable'
- remember how the LEP would prove the systems
- then the new ships would get them, the 'systems' ,in turn

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby shark bait » 24 Feb 2021, 10:44

NickC wrote:If you take your benchmark for a frigate as the GP T23, I wouldn't classify T31 as a frigate, maybe a OPV?


I did call it a patrol frigate, which I think is a suitable name. It's not much of a combatant, but it is more capable than the River class.

In the beginning it will have to get its capability from its embarked force, which is fine. It's not great, but it will do basic patrol tasks just fine.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 24 Feb 2021, 15:15

JohnM wrote:Bear in mind we still don't know exactly what GFE will be fitted to the T31s (do we?)... with all the talk of retiring up to 4 T23s early, there will be plenty of equipment available for the T31s by the time they come online (32xSea Ceptor farms, 30mm guns, ECM, even the hull sonars (although they're a bit long in the tooth), etc.). Also, depending on the outcome of the I-SSM program, some heavy ASMs may find their way to the T31s as the T26s start coming into service and the ASW T23s get retired. All in all, I'd hold my judgement on the ultimate equipment fit of the T31s; by the early 30s they could end up very well equipped GP/Patrol frigates.


We do and it doesn't comprise all that stuff.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 24 Feb 2021, 15:22

So, what does is comprise?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Jensy » 24 Feb 2021, 15:44

Interesting Type 26/31 related paper from Canada's Parliamentary Budget Office (no clue what level of influence they have relative to our OBR):

In response to a request by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates (OGGO), this report presents a costing analysis of building Canadian Surface Combatants (CSC) with the continuation of the Type 26, as well as the cost for two alternate designs: the FREMM and the Type 31e.


Image

Canadian Parliamentary Budget Office Link to full PDF:
https://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/en/blog/news/ ... se-options

EDIT: Just noticed the silhouette used for Type 31 is of Venator 110, not Arrowhead 140. Poor concept just won't be left to rest in peace.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 24 Feb 2021, 19:47

Jensy wrote:Interesting Type 26/31 related paper from Canada's Parliamentary Budget Office (no clue what level of influence they have relative to our OBR):

In response to a request by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates (OGGO), this report presents a costing analysis of building Canadian Surface Combatants (CSC) with the continuation of the Type 26, as well as the cost for two alternate designs: the FREMM and the Type 31e.


Image

Canadian Parliamentary Budget Office Link to full PDF:
https://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/en/blog/news/ ... se-options


Are the Canadians going to pull out of the T26 route?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 24 Feb 2021, 19:59

I'm just intrigued as to what the spec is for those T31s - that's over £1b each - we're building the T26 for that sort of money
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 24 Feb 2021, 21:35

Caribbean wrote:I'm just intrigued as to what the spec is for those T31s - that's over £1b each - we're building the T26 for that sort of money


I bet a lot of the cost comes from the Canadian build cost just look at the T26 costs roughly £38bn for 15 ships plus add ons compared to what £10bn for 8 ships plus add ons.
By the looks of things it costs roughly double to build in Canada than the UK.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 24 Feb 2021, 21:36

The Canadians numbers are for the entire life of the program, not just the build.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 24 Feb 2021, 21:51

JohnM wrote:The Canadians numbers are for the entire life of the program, not just the build.


The UKs is t just for build either, most percurment costs now include I believe around a 5-10 support package.
Even though not full life cost it shows the cost of building in Canada is far higher than the UK.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 24 Feb 2021, 22:05

Jake1992 wrote:
JohnM wrote:The Canadians numbers are for the entire life of the program, not just the build.


The UKs is t just for build either, most percurment costs now include I believe around a 5-10 support package.
Even though not full life cost it shows the cost of building in Canada is far higher than the UK.

Regardless, the Canadian costs, as presented, are the full expected life costs, not 5-10 year costs. They do have to set up the entire line
and logistical chain from the ground up...

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Feb 2021, 03:32

Jake1992 wrote:
JohnM wrote:The Canadians numbers are for the entire life of the program, not just the build.

The UKs is t just for build either, most percurment costs now include I believe around a 5-10 support package.
Even though not full life cost it shows the cost of building in Canada is far higher than the UK.
JohnM wrote:Regardless, the Canadian costs, as presented, are the full expected life costs, not 5-10 year costs. They do have to set up the entire line
and logistical chain from the ground up...
Reading the document, it looks like not the through-life cost. See page-1 of the document. Table 2-1 also help a lot.
https://pbo-dpb.s3.ca-central-1.amazona ... b58bd09018
The cost of 15 FREMM ships is estimated at $71.1 billion, inclusive of cancellation costs, running a new competitive design selection process, and a four-year delay
...
These cost estimates are inclusive of all activities associated with the development and acquisition phases of the procurement project and also account for provincial taxes and an initial 2-year supply of spare parts for each vessel. They do not include operating costs for the lifespan of the vessels.

Interesting. Also note,

1: "FREMM" estimate is based on US Constellation class
2: "T31e" estimate is based on Iver Huitfeldt class
3: In both cases, "anticipated differences in labour productivity between the shipyards" is estimated to require 55-58% higher cost than when built in US Bath or Huntington Ingalls, or Odense Maritime shipyard and Irving Shipbuilding.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 25 Feb 2021, 04:05

I stand corrected... thanks.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Feb 2021, 05:05

JohnM wrote:I stand corrected... thanks.
Not only you, but I myself was also thinking it was through-life. So, myself is also corrected. Thanks.

By the way, 1 Canada dollar is is 0.56 GBP. So,
- C$77.3B for 15 Canadian T26 is 42.5B GBP. 2.8B GBP per hull average.
- C$26.6 (27.5B subtracting 1.9B cancellation cost) for 15 T31e is 14.6B GBP. ~1B GBP per hull.

Now UK is to pay 2B GBP for the 5 T13s. What makes the "x2.5" higher price difference? Labour cost is noted as x1.5 in Canada, compared to US and Denmark. Not sure about Babcock, but it cannot explain the "x2.5".

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 25 Feb 2021, 05:15

Ron5 wrote:
JohnM wrote:Bear in mind we still don't know exactly what GFE will be fitted to the T31s (do we?)... with all the talk of retiring up to 4 T23s early, there will be plenty of equipment available for the T31s by the time they come online (32xSea Ceptor farms, 30mm guns, ECM, even the hull sonars (although they're a bit long in the tooth), etc.). Also, depending on the outcome of the I-SSM program, some heavy ASMs may find their way to the T31s as the T26s start coming into service and the ASW T23s get retired. All in all, I'd hold my judgement on the ultimate equipment fit of the T31s; by the early 30s they could end up very well equipped GP/Patrol frigates.


We do and it doesn't comprise all that stuff.


So, what does the GFE for the T31 comprise? And of that, what’s being transferred over from the T23s?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby RichardIC » 25 Feb 2021, 09:05

JohnM wrote:So, what does the GFE for the T31 comprise? And of that, what’s being transferred over from the T23s?


Simple answer is that we don't know. But very little is likely to be transferred over from the T23s.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 25 Feb 2021, 12:18

Recently reading that towards the end of the WWII in the Pacific the USN planned to go to larger calibres as the small caliber 10 and 40 mm CIWS short range low weight shells were not effective in deflecting the kamikaze aircraft/bomb and the ship still likely to be hit by bomb or debris as it follows its ballistic trajectory. USN needed heavier shells with longer range and sufficient kinetic energy to deflect aircraft bomb/missile and replace the quad Bofors 40mm with the new British/US twin 3"/70 with automatic mount with proximity fused 15lb shell, used the 3"/50 twin as a stand in until the development of the 3"/70 was completed, by end of war only fitted to ~8 ships. RN fitted the 3"/70 on HMS Tiger with its water cooled probertised monobloc barrel, post war went to missiles.

Ships today face similar attack threats with high mass and much faster missiles, eg the BrahMos Mach 2.8 ~2,000kg, think that T31 57mm or 40 mm guns will be of minimal effectiveness, left with its 12 Sea Ceptors, as normally fired in pairs and even assuming Pk of 80% chance of ship surviving co-ordinated attack by fighters each carrying two missiles very, very low if on its own.

Understand T31s NS110 can only control max of three FCR solutions at any one time.

A comment applied to the T31 on STRN applicable, Fisher’s description of the navy he took on as one ‘that could neither fight nor run away’

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby NickC » 25 Feb 2021, 12:24

NickC wrote:Recently reading that towards the end of the WWII in the Pacific the USN planned to go to larger calibres as the small caliber 10 and 40 mm CIWS short range low weight shells were not effective in deflecting the kamikaze aircraft/bomb and the ship still likely to be hit by bomb or debris as it follows its ballistic trajectory. USN needed heavier shells with longer range and sufficient kinetic energy to deflect aircraft bomb/missile and replace the quad Bofors 40mm with the new British/US twin 3"/70 with automatic mount with proximity fused 15lb shell, used the 3"/50 twin as a stand in until the development of the 3"/70 was completed, by end of war only fitted to ~8 ships. RN fitted the 3"/70 on HMS Tiger with its water cooled probertised monobloc barrel, post war went to missiles.

Ships today face similar attack threats with high mass and much faster missiles, eg the BrahMos Mach 2.8 ~2,000kg, think that T31 57mm or 40 mm guns will be of minimal effectiveness, left with its 12 Sea Ceptors, as normally fired in pairs and even assuming Pk of 80% chance of ship surviving co-ordinated attack by fighters each carrying two missiles very, very low if on its own.

Understand T31s NS110 can only control max of three FCR solutions at any one time.

A comment applied to the T31 on STRN applicable, Fisher’s description of the navy he took on as one ‘that could neither fight nor run away’


Edit, "the small caliber 10 and 40 mm CIWS short range" should read the small caliber 20 and 40 mm CIWS short range - 20 mm Oerlikon and 40 mm Bofors

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby JohnM » 25 Feb 2021, 13:39

RichardIC wrote:
JohnM wrote:So, what does the GFE for the T31 comprise? And of that, what’s being transferred over from the T23s?


Simple answer is that we don't know. But very little is likely to be transferred over from the T23s.

That’s what I thought, but Ron5 said explicitly that we do know, so I’m curious... do we or do we not? I’ve not seen it announced anywhere...

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Feb 2021, 14:16

From T23 to T31.

Different 3D radar, different gun (neither 114 mm nor 30 mm), no sonar (likely not), no AS torpedo, different ESM/ECM, different EO-FCS, different CMS, are what is already known.

CAMM? I understand it is new, not refurbs from T23.

So, maybe some com-link, and what? ....
We know there shall be many minor equipments which can be transferred, but no one knows. But, anyway no major equipments/armaments are to be transferred (other than very small possibility on CAMM, may be SeaSentor torpedo defense system?). This is known.


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